Discussion:
Mysterious gdb behavior.
(too old to reply)
Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-27 01:23:42 UTC
Permalink
Sometime recently (but *before* that last upgrade that botched things
up) gdb apparently got tired of working decided to retire.

When run with an image, it used to work quite nicely. I used it to
track down a crash a few months back; this proved to be caused by a
DLL problem that was causing the program to jump at a trampoline and
bounce off into never-never land. Nasty to track down that kind of
problem without a debugger.

Well, now I have no debugger, and I've managed to fix about three
core-dumping bugs since it quit working without it's help, but it's
only a matter of time before I really truly *need* it working or the
world will end.

Symptoms: gdb foo-executable-name brings up a normal window with the
right source file open and the highlight on the main() function's
start. You click the run icon in the upper left corner and...
nothing happens.
You click it again. You use the menu item. Nothing happens.
You see there's a breakpoint on the first line, remove it. Now
something happens: the breakpoint magically reappears. But it doesn't
run.
You go to the console and hit run and this time you actually get an
error message instead of a silent failure:

Error: Error creating process <image path>, (error 193)

Then you look at the documentation. There's no documentation of the
error codes.

This seems to mean we have 2 bugs and 1 "bug of omission" here.
Bug #1: It quits working for no good reason without anything having
been changed in its configuration. That's just plain bad.
Bug #2: It fails silently rather than present a diagnostic in, say, a
dialog box under some circumstances. This is practically the #1 no-no
of UI design, guys!
Bug of omission: The feature that most certainly should be there that
translates internal error numbers into meaningful diagnostic messages
isn't implemented. It's just not reasonable to present the end user
with "(error 193)". Even when the end user is definitely a
programmer. He knows his own code's error numbers by heart, most
likely, but someone else's code's error numbers are as cryptic to him
as anyone else. This screwy error reporting, incidentally, being the
Macintosh's sole UI defect, aside from lack of decent powerful
options in general and decent free development tools in particular;
"This application has unexpectedly quit because an error of type -53
occurred" has to be the most awful thing I ever had the displeasure
to see on a computer screen. No clue what's really wrong. No clue how
to fix it. (Yes, my high school forced me to use a Mac. I still bear
the psychological scars to this very day.)

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Christopher Faylor
2002-07-27 01:47:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Bug #1: It quits working for no good reason without anything having
been changed in its configuration. That's just plain bad.
I'm hard at work on this one. I haven't changed anything in days and
gdb continues to work. I will try not changing anything over the
weekend and see if gdb continues to work on Monday. I may just drop
everything and not change anything in gdb's configuration for the next
couple of weeks. Certainly if the mere act of not changing anything
will eventually cause gdb to fail, I will eventually be able to duplicate
and fix this problem. It will be hard to fix, though, since the act
of fixing the problem will require changing gdb which would probably,
by definition, cause it to work again anyway.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Bug #2: It fails silently rather than present a diagnostic in, say, a
dialog box under some circumstances. This is practically the #1 no-no
of UI design, guys!
There are some situations where a configuration bug will cause gdb to
fail silently. However, this is not, as you seem to assume, by design.
It is just very hard to fix. The errors generally occur before tcl/tk
component has initialized and gdb has no easy way to open a dialog box
and display an error.

This usually means that your tcl/tk installation is hosed. Either it
has been moved, removed, or files are missing. The tcl installation
will be in /usr/share/tcl8.x (where x varies depending on whether you
are running the test version of gdb or not).

If this is the case then 'gdb -nw' will continue to work, in case you
want to debug gdb and see what's wrong.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Bug of omission: The feature that most certainly should be there that
translates internal error numbers into meaningful diagnostic messages
isn't implemented. It's just not reasonable to present the end user
with "(error 193)". Even when the end user is definitely a programmer.
He knows his own code's error numbers by heart, most likely, but
someone else's code's error numbers are as cryptic to him as anyone
else.
Error 193 is a Windows API error. Specifically, it is
ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT. I thought the normal way to find this out was to
type "net helpmsg 193" but that doesn't work on my W2K system.

cgf
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Samuel
2002-07-29 20:36:32 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: Mysterious gdb behavior.
Error 193 is a Windows API error. Specifically, it is
ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT. I thought the normal way to find this out was to
type "net helpmsg 193" but that doesn't work on my W2K system.
For those that have the Windows SDK header files, the following is a copy of
the relevant portion of winerror.h:

//
// MessageId: ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT
//
// MessageText:
//
// %1 is not a valid Windows NT application.
//
#define ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT 193L



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Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-30 02:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Samuel
Post by Christopher Faylor
Error 193 is a Windows API error. Specifically, it is
ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT. I thought the normal way to find this out was to
type "net helpmsg 193" but that doesn't work on my W2K system.
For those that have the Windows SDK header files, the following is a copy of
//
// MessageId: ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT
//
//
// %1 is not a valid Windows NT application.
//
#define ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT 193L
It'd be nice of the gdb port would translate error numbers like 193
into meaningful error messages. Instead, the user has to look around
in winapi header files. No, scratch that, since gdb doesn't even
indicate that it's a Windows error code, the user has to either be
knowledgeable about the gdb source code and have the time and
inclination to go hunting through it to see where the error message
is coming from, or they have to ask the mailing list an expert on
which will then do likewise. And, of course, the natural thing to do
with the gdb source in this instance is to search it for #define foo
193 only to find it isn't there, because it turned out gdb is only
passing this number on from a system call...

Cryptic error messages, especially raw numbers, are the bane of
troubleshooting and of end users everywhere.

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Christopher Faylor
2002-07-30 03:02:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Cryptic error messages, especially raw numbers, are the bane of
troubleshooting and of end users everywhere.
Yes, and, the weed of crime bears bitter fruit...

The Shadow

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Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
2002-07-30 02:41:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Samuel
Post by Christopher Faylor
Error 193 is a Windows API error. Specifically, it is
ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT. I thought the normal way to find this out was to
type "net helpmsg 193" but that doesn't work on my W2K system.
For those that have the Windows SDK header files, the following is a copy of
//
// MessageId: ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT
//
//
// %1 is not a valid Windows NT application.
//
#define ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT 193L
It'd be nice of the gdb port would translate error numbers like 193
into meaningful error messages. Instead, the user has to look around
in winapi header files. No, scratch that, since gdb doesn't even
indicate that it's a Windows error code, the user has to either be
knowledgeable about the gdb source code and have the time and
inclination to go hunting through it to see where the error message
is coming from, or they have to ask the mailing list an expert on
which will then do likewise. And, of course, the natural thing to do
with the gdb source in this instance is to search it for #define foo
193 only to find it isn't there, because it turned out gdb is only
passing this number on from a system call...
Cryptic error messages, especially raw numbers, are the bane of
troubleshooting and of end users everywhere.
Hi Paul,

I'm not sure how long you've been a part of this list but your name
seems new to me. Let me take a moment to welcome you to the Cygwin
community. It's a group of volunteers and users, all working to make Cygwin better.

Certainly, you've jumped right in! I can see you've been quite prolific
on the email list recently. I think it's great that you're curious about the
problems you're seeing and have ideas for solutions. I am, however, concerned
that you're not going to get much in the way of responses from knowledgeable
folk on this list if you don't try to work with those who respond to your
posts. I can see that some might see your responses as inflammatory. To be
sure, everyone's entitled to a rant or two on this list. The email archive
is full of them. I'm sure it wouldn't take someone too long to find a post or
two of mine that qualifies. ;-) Still, it's important to recognize that
the goal of this list is to exchange information. A certain healthy dose
of tolerance is sometimes required to keep a reasonable signal to noise ratio.
Don't forget, this is a list of volunteers. Volunteers aren't as motivated
to spend their "free" time trying to help folks that don't work with them.
I only mention that because I can see how many of your recent posts (including
this one) might be perceived by maintainers (and others) as divisive. I'd
hate to see posts of yours on good issues go ignored because of this. Since
you may be new to the list, I thought I'd point out how you might best get
information you need. You may be fully aware of all this already. If so,
I apologize for conveying it too you again. But if not, it seemed negligent
of me not to point this out.

I hope you find Cygwin useful and I look forward to your future contributions
to it's continued success.

Best Regards,


Larry Hall ***@rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc. http://www.rfk.com
838 Washington Street (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746 (508) 893-9889 - FAX


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Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-31 18:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
Post by Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
Certainly, you've jumped right in! I can see you've been quite prolific
on the email list recently.
I'm not going to swamp it, if that's what's got you worried. I got
Cygwin a while back and accumulated a number of questions about it
that the FAQ didn't answer over the time since. I spent a while
trying to get a question (the cron problem) posted via the gmane
server, but something isn't working there and I couldn't even get
hold of the administrator; I eventually gave up on gmane and
subscribed to the list. (For high volume stuff I prefer to use a
newsgroup if possible.) By then I'd accumulated many questions to
post. Hence the first "rash" of postings. One question, the gdb one,
unfortunately started a debate in which I wound up having to defend
myself on a few points, which has necessitated that I post a lot of
replies. This has caused the second "rash". To cut down on list
traffic I decided to check mail less often, so the debate would be
spread more thinly over time. It doesn't seem to have worked -- I
just have proportionally more to respond to each time I do check mail
for some reason.

But the debate is running out of steam (crosses fingers) and the
initial batch of accumulated questions have all been asked. I will
probably be just lurking within a week, with the odd question to ask
every month or two, assuming nothing extraordinary happens.
Post by Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
Post by Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
I am, however, concerned that you're not going to get much in the way of
responses from knowledgeable folk on this list if you don't try to
work with those who respond to your posts.
Frankly, some of them have expectations that are way out of line. I'm
not going to research every last thing to death when I'm looking for
a quick fix to a specific problem and anyone who isn't willing to
offer a quick fix needn't even respond to postings that ask for one.
Post by Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
I can see that some might see your responses as inflammatory.
They're frustrated responses. Frustrated that someone keeps expecting
me to solve it myself -- I wouldn't be posting to the list if I
hadn't already exhausted my resources and given up trying to solve it
myself; frustrated that someone who wants me to solve it myself
wastes bandwidth to tell me their expectations when it doesn't
contribute usefully; and frustrated that someone has posted yet
another message that is hostile in tone and forces me to respond in
my own defense, which in turn leads to a growing perception that I'm
clogging the list with traffic -- as if I had a choice. I would like
to just ignore two or three of the posters, but I can't given that
they periodically post something that suggests fault on my part and
that consequently requires a public correction.
Post by Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
Post by Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
Still, it's important to recognize that the goal of this list is
to exchange information.
Yes, and some of my "rants" have been trying to tell people that in
fact. I ask for information, I get told why it's wrong to ask. I ask
for information, I get different information. I ask for information,
I get insults. Sheesh.
Post by Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
Post by Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
A certain healthy dose of tolerance is sometimes required to keep
a reasonable signal to noise ratio.
I am normally very tolerant, but my patience for snarky and unhelpful
replies of any kind to serious and straightforward questions is short
and has been exhausted lately. The snarky replies themselves betray
intolerance on the part of others. I find myself wondering why this
message seems directed at me, rather than at them. I can only guess
that it's a "the newbie is always guilty" attitude, which would be
unfortunate...
Post by Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
Post by Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
Don't forget, this is a list of volunteers. Volunteers aren't as motivated
to spend their "free" time trying to help folks that don't work with them.
I only mention that because I can see how many of your recent posts (including
this one) might be perceived by maintainers (and others) as divisive. I'd
hate to see posts of yours on good issues go ignored because of this. Since
you may be new to the list, I thought I'd point out how you might best get
information you need.
I'd hoped it was as simple as asking. Unfortunately, it seems it
isn't. Apparently there's some kind of god-damned politics to it, and
certain egos have to be stroked or something before any information
will be divulged. I don't have the time or inclination to involve
myself in any kind of local politics -- I just want to get
straightforward answers to straightforward questions. I hope that is
not too much to ask...
Post by Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
Post by Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
I hope you find Cygwin useful and I look forward to your future contributions
to it's continued success.
I have found it useful, regardless of the appearance here. I suppose
it looks like I've found it to be full of bugs and quirks -- it is,
but so is any large system, and cygwin has less than other smaller
ones I've seen. :) Postings here asking for help invariably come from
people encountering problems,
though, so you'll hear about problems more often than you will about
things working perfectly -- nobody remarks upon the latter, any more
than they comment on the green lights they encounter on the road even
as they grumble about the red ones.


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Robert McNulty Junior
2002-07-31 21:42:12 UTC
Permalink
I never tried gdb on a file with a space in it.
but one suggestion is
gdb test\ one.exe
Notice the way test one.exe is being read?
Do that.



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Michael A Chase
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
I never tried gdb on a file with a space in it. but one suggestion is
gdb test\ one.exe
Notice the way test one.exe is being read?
Do that.
Spaces in file names don't appear to be the problem. Max said in another
email that he's doing a test of that now to be absolutely certain (at least
in his system).
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Robert McNulty Junior
2002-07-31 22:28:22 UTC
Permalink
I just had to put in some more of my 2 cents advice
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael A Chase" <***@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Robert McNulty Junior" <***@bellsouth.net>; <***@cygwin.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: Mysterious gdb behavior.
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:42:12 -0500 Robert McNulty Junior
I never tried gdb on a file with a space in it. but one suggestion is
gdb test\ one.exe
Notice the way test one.exe is being read?
Do that.
Spaces in file names don't appear to be the problem. Max said in another
email that he's doing a test of that now to be absolutely certain (at least
in his system).
--
Mac :})
** I normally forward private questions to the appropriate mail list. **
Ask Smarter: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Give a hobbit a fish and he eats fish for a day.
Give a hobbit a ring and he eats fish for an age.
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Max Bowsher
2002-07-31 22:52:32 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:42:12 -0500 Robert McNulty Junior
I never tried gdb on a file with a space in it. but one suggestion is
gdb test\ one.exe
Notice the way test one.exe is being read?
Do that.
Spaces in file names don't appear to be the problem. Max said in another
email that he's doing a test of that now to be absolutely certain (at least
in his system).
I'm testing spaces in _user_ names, at least secondarily. My primary reason is
to disprove Paul Derbyshire's assertion that changing your username causes big
problems.

Max.


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Robert McNulty Junior
2002-07-31 23:21:41 UTC
Permalink
I have Cygwin running under Windows XP: Pro.
My processor is a 1.2 GHZ , Pavilion 520w.
The only user on it is me.
Under the WIndows XP Home Edition, the Owner is one person.
I am not running a public access computer.
Its a system along with two others (Win98). My computer doing fine. Except
the cd writer.
Bobby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Max Bowsher" <***@ukf.net>
To: <***@cygwin.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: Mysterious gdb behavior.
Post by Max Bowsher
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:42:12 -0500 Robert McNulty Junior
I never tried gdb on a file with a space in it. but one suggestion is
gdb test\ one.exe
Notice the way test one.exe is being read?
Do that.
Spaces in file names don't appear to be the problem. Max said in another
email that he's doing a test of that now to be absolutely certain (at least
in his system).
I'm testing spaces in _user_ names, at least secondarily. My primary reason is
to disprove Paul Derbyshire's assertion that changing your username causes big
problems.
Max.
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Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
2002-07-30 02:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Samuel
Post by Christopher Faylor
Error 193 is a Windows API error. Specifically, it is
ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT. I thought the normal way to find this out was to
type "net helpmsg 193" but that doesn't work on my W2K system.
For those that have the Windows SDK header files, the following is a copy of
//
// MessageId: ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT
//
//
// %1 is not a valid Windows NT application.
//
#define ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT 193L
It'd be nice of the gdb port would translate error numbers like 193
into meaningful error messages. Instead, the user has to look around
in winapi header files. No, scratch that, since gdb doesn't even
indicate that it's a Windows error code, the user has to either be
knowledgeable about the gdb source code and have the time and
inclination to go hunting through it to see where the error message
is coming from, or they have to ask the mailing list an expert on
which will then do likewise. And, of course, the natural thing to do
with the gdb source in this instance is to search it for #define foo
193 only to find it isn't there, because it turned out gdb is only
passing this number on from a system call...
Cryptic error messages, especially raw numbers, are the bane of
troubleshooting and of end users everywhere.
Hi Paul,
I'm not sure how long you've been a part of this list but your name
seems new to me. Let me take a moment to welcome you to the Cygwin
community. It's a group of volunteers and users, all working to make Cygwin better.
Certainly, you've jumped right in! I can see you've been quite prolific
on the email list recently. I think it's great that you're curious about the
problems you're seeing and have ideas for solutions. I am, however, concerned
that you're not going to get much in the way of responses from knowledgeable
folk on this list if you don't try to work with those who respond to your
posts. I can see that some might see your responses as inflammatory. To be
sure, everyone's entitled to a rant or two on this list. The email archive
is full of them. I'm sure it wouldn't take someone too long to find a post or
two of mine that qualifies. ;-) Still, it's important to recognize that
the goal of this list is to exchange information. A certain healthy dose
of tolerance is sometimes required to keep a reasonable signal to noise ratio.
Don't forget, this is a list of volunteers. Volunteers aren't as motivated
to spend their "free" time trying to help folks that don't work with them.
I only mention that because I can see how many of your recent posts (including
this one) might be perceived by maintainers (and others) as divisive. I'd
hate to see posts of yours on good issues go ignored because of this. Since
you may be new to the list, I thought I'd point out how you might best get
information you need. You may be fully aware of all this already. If so,
I apologize for conveying it too you again. But if not, it seemed negligent
^^^
Grrr! to
Post by Larry Hall (RFK Partners, Inc)
of me not to point this out.
I hope you find Cygwin useful and I look forward to your future contributions
to it's continued success.
Best Regards,
RFK Partners, Inc. http://www.rfk.com
838 Washington Street (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
Holliston, MA 01746 (508) 893-9889 - FAX
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Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-27 02:06:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Faylor
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Bug #1: It quits working for no good reason without anything having
been changed in its configuration. That's just plain bad.
I'm hard at work on this one. I haven't changed anything in days and
gdb continues to work. I will try not changing anything over the
weekend and see if gdb continues to work on Monday. I may just drop
everything and not change anything in gdb's configuration for the next
couple of weeks. Certainly if the mere act of not changing anything
will eventually cause gdb to fail, I will eventually be able to duplicate
and fix this problem. It will be hard to fix, though, since the act
of fixing the problem will require changing gdb which would probably,
by definition, cause it to work again anyway.
Very funny. It must have scrogged one of its own config files,
though, and I'm curious how that happened.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Bug #2: It fails silently rather than present a diagnostic in, say, a
dialog box under some circumstances. This is practically the #1 no-no
of UI design, guys!
There are some situations where a configuration bug will cause gdb to
fail silently. However, this is not, as you seem to assume, by design.
It is just very hard to fix. The errors generally occur before tcl/tk
component has initialized and gdb has no easy way to open a dialog box
and display an error.
It can always dump the message to stdout so it appears in the bash
console. Anyway, this one's happening after it's already successfully
initialized the widget kit and displayed at least one window.
Post by Christopher Faylor
This usually means that your tcl/tk installation is hosed. Either it
has been moved, removed, or files are missing. The tcl installation
will be in /usr/share/tcl8.x (where x varies depending on whether you
are running the test version of gdb or not).
If this is the case then 'gdb -nw' will continue to work, in case you
want to debug gdb and see what's wrong.
Is that the command switch to use text instead of gui?
(tries it)
yep. And it's not a tcl problem. I ran gdb -nw <image name>, got
(gdb) prompt in console, put run, and got the same exact error
message.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Error 193 is a Windows API error. Specifically, it is
ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT. I thought the normal way to find this out was to
type "net helpmsg 193" but that doesn't work on my W2K system.
I thought the normal way to find this out was to see the error
message displayed in plain English, decide you just had to know what
internal code number is used to represent it, and find it in the
source code of the app. :P

Now why is it suddenly complaining that perfectly good executables
are bad? Or if the executables really are bad, why the hell do they
*work* (at least, run and crash rather than fail to run at all) when
launched from bash? Bash and gdb presumably spawn processes in the
same way, however unix does that, and with the cygwin compatibility
layer between that and however Windows spawns processes.

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Sylvain Petreolle
2002-07-27 04:50:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Now why is it suddenly complaining that perfectly good executables
are bad? Or if the executables really are bad, why the hell do they
*work* (at least, run and crash rather than fail to run at all) when
launched from bash? Bash and gdb presumably spawn processes in the
same way, however unix does that, and with the cygwin compatibility
layer between that and however Windows spawns processes.
Did you try this with several executable files ?
The error could come from a single hosed file.

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Sylvain Petreolle
2002-07-27 04:50:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Now why is it suddenly complaining that perfectly good executables
are bad? Or if the executables really are bad, why the hell do they
*work* (at least, run and crash rather than fail to run at all) when
launched from bash? Bash and gdb presumably spawn processes in the
same way, however unix does that, and with the cygwin compatibility
layer between that and however Windows spawns processes.
Did you try this with several executable files ?
The error could come from a single hosed file.

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Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-27 22:55:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sylvain Petreolle
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Now why is it suddenly complaining that perfectly good executables
are bad? Or if the executables really are bad, why the hell do they
*work* (at least, run and crash rather than fail to run at all) when
launched from bash? Bash and gdb presumably spawn processes in the
same way, however unix does that, and with the cygwin compatibility
layer between that and however Windows spawns processes.
Did you try this with several executable files ?
The error could come from a single hosed file.
$ gdb -nw hw
GNU gdb 5.0 (20010428-3)
Copyright 2001 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Pu
welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it
Type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB. Type "sho
This GDB was configured as "i686-pc-cygwin"...
(gdb) run
Starting program: /home/Paul Derbyshire/antheria/hw.exe
Error creating process /home/Paul Derbyshire/antheria/hw.exe, (error
193)

(gdb) quit

$ ./hw
Hello, world!

Hosed executable, my arse. My test executable ran fine from the
prompt three microseconds after choking gdb.

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Nicholas Wourms
2002-07-27 23:26:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Sylvain Petreolle
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Now why is it suddenly complaining that perfectly good
executables
Post by Sylvain Petreolle
Post by Paul Derbyshire
are bad? Or if the executables really are bad, why the hell do
they
Post by Sylvain Petreolle
Post by Paul Derbyshire
*work* (at least, run and crash rather than fail to run at all)
when
Post by Sylvain Petreolle
Post by Paul Derbyshire
launched from bash? Bash and gdb presumably spawn processes in
the
Post by Sylvain Petreolle
Post by Paul Derbyshire
same way, however unix does that, and with the cygwin
compatibility
Post by Sylvain Petreolle
Post by Paul Derbyshire
layer between that and however Windows spawns processes.
Did you try this with several executable files ?
The error could come from a single hosed file.
$ gdb -nw hw
GNU gdb 5.0 (20010428-3)
Copyright 2001 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Pu
welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it
Type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB. Type "sho
This GDB was configured as "i686-pc-cygwin"...
(gdb) run
Starting program: /home/Paul Derbyshire/antheria/hw.exe
Error creating process /home/Paul Derbyshire/antheria/hw.exe,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*SIGH* Looks like someone didn't read the FAQ...

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Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-27 23:41:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nicholas Wourms
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Sylvain Petreolle
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Now why is it suddenly complaining that perfectly good
executables
Post by Sylvain Petreolle
Post by Paul Derbyshire
are bad? Or if the executables really are bad, why the hell do
they
Post by Sylvain Petreolle
Post by Paul Derbyshire
*work* (at least, run and crash rather than fail to run at all)
when
Post by Sylvain Petreolle
Post by Paul Derbyshire
launched from bash? Bash and gdb presumably spawn processes in
the
Post by Sylvain Petreolle
Post by Paul Derbyshire
same way, however unix does that, and with the cygwin
compatibility
Post by Sylvain Petreolle
Post by Paul Derbyshire
layer between that and however Windows spawns processes.
Did you try this with several executable files ?
The error could come from a single hosed file.
$ gdb -nw hw
GNU gdb 5.0 (20010428-3)
Copyright 2001 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Pu
welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it
Type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB. Type "sho
This GDB was configured as "i686-pc-cygwin"...
(gdb) run
Starting program: /home/Paul Derbyshire/antheria/hw.exe
Error creating process /home/Paul Derbyshire/antheria/hw.exe,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*SIGH* Looks like someone didn't read the FAQ...
Excuse me? Should I not be trying to gdb executables under /home, or
something?

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Michael A Chase
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Nicholas Wourms
Post by Paul Derbyshire
. . .
Starting program: /home/Paul Derbyshire/antheria/hw.exe
Error creating process /home/Paul Derbyshire/antheria/hw.exe,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*SIGH* Looks like someone didn't read the FAQ...
Excuse me? Should I not be trying to gdb executables under /home, or
something?
Try looking at it with a fixed pitch font. I suspect he's pointing out
that gdb, like many UNIX programs, doesn't deal well with spaces in file or
directory names.
--
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** I normally forward private questions to the appropriate mail list. **
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Give a hobbit a fish and he eats fish for a day.
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Nicholas Wourms
2002-07-28 14:10:28 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 27 Jul 2002 19:41:57 -0400 Paul Derbyshire
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Nicholas Wourms
Post by Paul Derbyshire
. . .
Starting program: /home/Paul Derbyshire/antheria/hw.exe
Error creating process /home/Paul Derbyshire/antheria/hw.exe,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*SIGH* Looks like someone didn't read the FAQ...
Excuse me? Should I not be trying to gdb executables under /home,
or
Post by Paul Derbyshire
something?
Try looking at it with a fixed pitch font. I suspect he's pointing out
that gdb, like many UNIX programs, doesn't deal well with spaces in file or
directory names.
Mac,

As usual, you are quite right. I was just trying to teach the hobbit
how to fish without doing it for him. If he's reading this, I
suggest he seriously considier reading the FAQ completely before
asking YA question that is covered by it. This list recieves enough
volume as it is. I'm sure I could have plotutils generate a graph
showing the exponential increase of volume on this list since his
first post, but I fear the point would be lost...

Cheers,
Nicholas

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Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-28 00:26:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael A Chase
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Nicholas Wourms
Post by Paul Derbyshire
. . .
Starting program: /home/Paul Derbyshire/antheria/hw.exe
Error creating process /home/Paul Derbyshire/antheria/hw.exe,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*SIGH* Looks like someone didn't read the FAQ...
Excuse me? Should I not be trying to gdb executables under /home, or
something?
Try looking at it with a fixed pitch font. I suspect he's pointing out
that gdb, like many UNIX programs, doesn't deal well with spaces in file or
directory names.
And why, pray tell, does it have to? The image I was debugging was in
the current directory. It shouldn't care what the path name looks
like.

Also, Windows API calls should deal with it just fine. It's a Windows
API call that's failing, according to one of the other posters.

Also, if path names with spaces in are problems, then explain why
Cygwin's installer *automatically created* that directory and made it
my home directory? Obviously, it shouldn't do that if it's going to
cause problems. It should either give the installing user a choice
about it, or it should replace the spaces with underscores, or
whatever.

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Robert Collins
2002-07-28 00:54:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Michael A Chase
Try looking at it with a fixed pitch font. I suspect he's pointing out
that gdb, like many UNIX programs, doesn't deal well with spaces in file or
directory names.
And why, pray tell, does it have to? The image I was debugging was in
the current directory. It shouldn't care what the path name looks
like.
It has to because it can't assume that a given image will always be
accessed by a relative path, and that it won't collide with something in
the PATH variable.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Also, Windows API calls should deal with it just fine. It's a Windows
API call that's failing, according to one of the other posters.
It's a windows API error code that is being reported. It may or may not
be a windows API error - it may be unix orientated code doing the wrong
thing.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Also, if path names with spaces in are problems, then explain why
Cygwin's installer *automatically created* that directory and made it
my home directory?
Because we're mean.

Rob
Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-28 11:12:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Collins
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Michael A Chase
Try looking at it with a fixed pitch font. I suspect he's pointing out
that gdb, like many UNIX programs, doesn't deal well with spaces in file or
directory names.
And why, pray tell, does it have to? The image I was debugging was in
the current directory. It shouldn't care what the path name looks
like.
It has to because it can't assume that a given image will always be
accessed by a relative path, and that it won't collide with something in
the PATH variable.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Also, Windows API calls should deal with it just fine. It's a Windows
API call that's failing, according to one of the other posters.
It's a windows API error code that is being reported. It may or may not
be a windows API error - it may be unix orientated code doing the wrong
thing.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Also, if path names with spaces in are problems, then explain why
Cygwin's installer *automatically created* that directory and made it
my home directory?
Because we're mean.
OK. Is anyone going to actually suggest a solution here? And don't
say "rename the directory", I don't imagine renaming the home
directory to something other than your user name is going to do
anything but cause more trouble.

Really, spaces in path names shouldn't bother any part of the system.
Wherever path names with spaces are handed off to shells or whatever
they should be quoted, that's all. If path names that went into
scripts, parameter lists, or whatever were defensively quoted there
would never be an issue. If it really can't be made to work, then
perhaps the system should automatically use the short version of
names with spaces in them? I.e. paulde~1? Windows has handily
supplied these for all such path names, and they'll be interpreted by
the underlying filesystem as naming the same place, so...

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Robert Collins
2002-07-28 11:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
OK. Is anyone going to actually suggest a solution here? And don't
say "rename the directory", I don't imagine renaming the home
directory to something other than your user name is going to do
anything but cause more trouble.
I won't say what you don't want to hear. You might consider searching
the friendly archives, because they *tell* you what is worse - a home
dir with spaces or a home dir w/o spaces.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Really, spaces in path names shouldn't bother any part of the system.
should != doesn't. I agree, it sucks. Still, unless you want to patch
all the broken software out there (which BTW includes pure win32
programs last time I checked), then you need to deal with it one way or
another.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Wherever path names with spaces are handed off to shells or whatever
they should be quoted, that's all.
*Please*, research before asserting. Because non-cygwin1.dll linked
programs don't unquote arguments this solution actually sucks worse than
the current status quo.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
If path names that went into
scripts, parameter lists, or whatever were defensively quoted there
would never be an issue.
Untrue, as indicated above.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
If it really can't be made to work, then
perhaps the system should automatically use the short version of
names with spaces in them?
Those short names do not always exist - you'll need a fallback for those
cases. It's an interesting idea though, perhaps you'd like to contribute
a patch. I'd be happy to give you pointers on what do look at to create
such a patch.

Rob
Christopher Faylor
2002-07-28 23:37:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
OK. Is anyone going to actually suggest a solution here? And don't
say "rename the directory", I don't imagine renaming the home
directory to something other than your user name is going to do
anything but cause more trouble.
Have you actually tried this in a directory without spaces in it? I don't
recall seeing that experiment.

Two things that I would suggest are

1) Try explictly specifying the path and extension when debugging
i.e., "gdb -nw ./foo.exe".

2) Try the test version of gdb, available when you select "Exp" in the package
installation screen when running setup.exe. I just tried this version in a
directory with spaces and it seemed to work ok. This version of gdb does
have some reported occasional memory corruption problems but I haven't noticed
them personally. That may be because I rarely use the GUI version of gdb.

cgf

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Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-29 00:31:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Collins
Post by Paul Derbyshire
OK. Is anyone going to actually suggest a solution here? And don't
say "rename the directory", I don't imagine renaming the home
directory to something other than your user name is going to do
anything but cause more trouble.
I won't say what you don't want to hear. You might consider searching
the friendly archives, because they *tell* you what is worse - a home
dir with spaces or a home dir w/o spaces.
But once it's set, it's set. If the installer had given me the option
to choose my Cygwin user name instead of just making it the same as
the Windows one, and displayed a suggestion not to put spaces in it,
and made the default the Windows user name with underscores
substituted for spaces...
Post by Robert Collins
should != doesn't. I agree, it sucks. Still, unless you want to patch
all the broken software out there (which BTW includes pure win32
programs last time I checked), then you need to deal with it one way or
another.
Why isn't most of it (the open source stuff, that is) already
patched? gdb has been around in various forms for decades.
Post by Robert Collins
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Wherever path names with spaces are handed off to shells or whatever
they should be quoted, that's all.
*Please*, research before asserting. Because non-cygwin1.dll linked
programs don't unquote arguments this solution actually sucks worse than
the current status quo.
Obviously it should quote them only to other Cygwin linked programs.
Which it can identify by whether it launching something in the cygwin
tree or not. In fact, the general rule to quote arguments to a
program launched purely by name and not to one launched by an
absolute path would probably work pretty well. Everything on Cygwin's
PATH can be assumed to unquote arguments I'd imagine.
Post by Robert Collins
Those short names do not always exist - you'll need a fallback for those
cases.
They do. Windows always assigns an 8.3 version of a filename that has
a long name, a long extension, multiple extensions (foo.tar.gz,
etc.), or an unusual character in the name such as a space.

[snip]

Now can anyone suggest a fix here? So far the only thing I've seen
explicitly suggested is to patch and recompile lots of stuff most of
whose internals I don't know the first thing about, and the vague
implication that I should blow the whole system away and reinstall it
after (finding out how and) changing my Windows username. I'd much
rather avoid either of those, especially as the latter will cause
data loss. Obviously the contents of the home directory could be
copied out but there's a ton of changes made to assorted other files,
such as /etc/profile, crontab entries, and so on. There's also the
sheer magnitude of the download.

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Robert Collins
2002-07-29 00:43:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Robert Collins
I won't say what you don't want to hear. You might consider searching
the friendly archives, because they *tell* you what is worse - a home
dir with spaces or a home dir w/o spaces.
But once it's set, it's set.
Untrue. Edit /etc/passwd.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Robert Collins
should != doesn't. I agree, it sucks. Still, unless you want to patch
all the broken software out there (which BTW includes pure win32
programs last time I checked), then you need to deal with it one way or
another.
Why isn't most of it (the open source stuff, that is) already
patched?
Good question.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Robert Collins
*Please*, research before asserting. Because non-cygwin1.dll linked
programs don't unquote arguments this solution actually sucks worse than
the current status quo.
Obviously it should quote them only to other Cygwin linked programs.
Which it can identify by whether it launching something in the cygwin
tree or not.
Untrue. cygcheck, wish and other programs in the cygwin tree may be
native programs, and cygwin linked programs may reside outside the tree.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
In fact, the general rule to quote arguments to a
program launched purely by name and not to one launched by an
absolute path would probably work pretty well. Everything on Cygwin's
PATH can be assumed to unquote arguments I'd imagine.
Imagine away... Cygwin's path includes the windows directory - and that
means many programs that won't unquote arguments.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Robert Collins
Those short names do not always exist - you'll need a fallback for those
cases.
They do. Windows always assigns an 8.3 version of a filename that has
a long name, a long extension, multiple extensions (foo.tar.gz,
etc.), or an unusual character in the name such as a space.
How to Disable Automatic Short File Name Generation:
<http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;[LN];Q210638>

I'm bowing out of this thread. You've shown yourself incapable of
discriminating between your imagination and reality. It makes it very
hard to discuss the topic at hand.

As a final comment in the vague hope you'll try rather than just arguing
from imagination:
* You should try Chris's list of tests.
* You could ask the list (via the archives or direct) the simplest way
to get rid of the space in your cygwin home directory.

Rob
Robert Collins
2002-07-29 00:58:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Collins
I'm bowing out of this thread. You've shown yourself incapable of
discriminating between your imagination and reality. It makes it very
hard to discuss the topic at hand.
This was rather rude - sorry. A better way of putting my feelings is:

I'm bowing out of this thread. I don't have time to correct all the
assumptions you are making more than once per assumption. The
information to demonstrate the falseness of your assumptions is
available via Google.

Cheers, and good luck.

Rob
Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-29 01:20:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Collins
Post by Robert Collins
I'm bowing out of this thread. You've shown yourself incapable of
discriminating between your imagination and reality. It makes it very
hard to discuss the topic at hand.
I'm bowing out of this thread. I don't have time to correct all the
assumptions you are making more than once per assumption. The
information to demonstrate the falseness of your assumptions is
available via Google.
When I'm not given adequate information I'm forced to guess the rest,
unlike you telepaths who can pluck the missing information out of a
passing bystander's mind. :P Or, at least, pluck the *fact* that you
need more information and some idea of what it is out of someone's
mind and then formulate a Google search query.

(Weirdly enough I've gotten into an argument in a newsgroup recently
over Google searches. Some of the people there seem to think Google
is a magical oracle, and that even if you don't know enough to
formulate a likely query to find something, or even if you don't know
there's even something to find, Google will just seize control of
your Web browser and it will just pop up on a site with the
information you didn't even know you were missing. I, of course, know
that Google is mere technology and you can't use it to find what you
aren't even looking for, or what you are when you don't know enough
key words to make a narrow enough query that the answer won't be
buried a million hits down into the list. It seems that an unhealthy
reverence for Google and an exaggerated expectation of what people
will be able to achieve with it is becoming a widespread problem on
the net these days...)

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Robert Collins
2002-07-29 02:02:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
When I'm not given adequate information I'm forced to guess the rest,
unlike you telepaths who can pluck the missing information out of a
passing bystander's mind. :P Or, at least, pluck the *fact* that you
need more information and some idea of what it is out of someone's
mind and then formulate a Google search query.
Against my better judgement I'm getting pulled back into this thread.
However, I'm now addressing your assertion about inadequate information,
and hopefully showing you why I've bowed out of the main thread. The
example laid out below is not the only example of baseless assertions
that could be demonstrated, it is just (IMO) the clearest.

You seem like an intelligent articulate guy, so I hope you will learn
from the below.

Please follow the following references:
1) You suggest using short file names under certain circumstances.
Specifically you claim "windows has handily provided these for ALL such
path names" (emphasis mine).
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2002-07/msg02207.html

2) I assert that that those short names DO NOT ALWAYS exist. I don't
provide a reference, because I am assuming ignorance on your part, and
that you will either assume I have reason to assert differently on this
topic, or will *research* to prove your point.
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2002-07/msg02208.html

3) You assert "They do. Windows ALWAYS assigns an 8.3 version of a
filename that has a long name, a long extension, multiple extensions
(foo.tar.gz, etc.), or an unusual character in the name such as a
space." Again, emphasis is mine. We are now both asserting different
things.
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2002-07/msg02242.html

4) I provide a reference to a web page that is a technical document from
Microsoft that demonstrates how to disable the automatic creation of
short file names in some circumstances. This disproves your assertions
in 1) and 3), and proves 2). It also demonstrates that you have not
followed up the reference provided, and are wasting my time. At this
point in the conversation I assume that you made assertions from a
position of ignorance, with no research made (into either FAT32 file
system layout, or NTFS file system layout, or NT kernel behaviour with
respect to long file names). Generalising this I conclude that
attempting to correct the other assertions you are making about the
potential solutions will be met unresearched incorrect statements, which
you will refuse to believe the correctness of, and will not follow
provided links that would correct your information.
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2002-07/msg02243.html

5) You claim that a Long filename without a short file name will cause
all sorts of trouble, even though you have been provided with
documentation from Microsoft about a supported method for creating just
such a situation.
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2002-07/msg02247.html

In summary:
1) Always makes SFN (short file names)
2) Not always.
3) does too.
4) doesn't. See here.
5) Oh, well no one would do such a thing it would break many
applications.

Sorry Paul, I've used NT systems with 8.3 filename generation disabled,
and it works *just fine*.

You were provided with an external link to authoritative documentation
about the topic. No guessing was needed about whether SFN are *always*
created or not. No guessing was needed about compatability issues and
kernel support.

In the light of this, I assume that you have not attempted the archival
search for topic relating to home directories with spaces in them, which
was the first thing I suggested. Or that if you have done such a search,
and found the relevant post, you've happily ignored it because 'you
imagine it will cause problems'.

Rob
Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-29 03:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Collins
3) You assert "They do. Windows ALWAYS assigns an 8.3 version of a
filename that has a long name, a long extension, multiple extensions
(foo.tar.gz, etc.), or an unusual character in the name such as a
space." Again, emphasis is mine. We are now both asserting different
things.
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2002-07/msg02242.html
And in my experience that's true. If there's a registry hack to make
Windows behave differently, that's neither surprising nor relevant.
Making Windows behave outside of its normal design specifications can
be expected to screw things up. (Hell, even without messing with it
it tends to screw thigns up :)) The default behavior is what's most
important -- anyone who's diddled with it in weird nonstandard ways
ought to be aware it might affect things. Notably any MS-DOS or 16
bit app that needs to access a directory. It's reasonable to expect
it to affect ported stuff in general.
Post by Robert Collins
This disproves your assertions in 1) and 3), and proves 2).
It demonstrates that there's a rare exception that involves purposely
fiddling with the normal behavior of the operating system in a way
that isn't within the default range of behaviors. When someone does
that anything can happen.
Post by Robert Collins
It also demonstrates that you have not followed up the reference
provided, and are wasting my time.
What reference, provided when? I could hardly follow up that
reference one iteration *before* you posted it. Obviously you again
expected me to read minds.

[Snip patronizing comments about needing to be corrected like a small
child.]

I don't care for your tone mister. Also, it's not *my* job to
research all of this stuff. It's my job to use this software and
expect it to work. If something needs to be done to the code to make
it work for a corner case that was not sufficiently allowed for
before, then whoever maintains the code should do it, and whatever
research is needed to make the right changes. I was only suggesting
how it might change. You seem to think I was trying to assert how it
should be changed. I was not. I was speculating. You took my
speculations for facts and then used this straw man to try to make me
look like an idiot on a public forum, and I do not appreciate that. I
suggest you do indeed refrain from answering anything else I post, or
from mentioning me here. Killfiling me might be a good idea.

This whole situation is ludicrous. I posted with a gdb problem.
Someone posted *suspecting* that the directory name with a space in
it was causing the problem. I pointed out that the installer chose
the name, not me, and that I don't recall it giving me a chance to
use another, at least not after informing me that spaces in path
names might cause problems. So I asked what to do about it now. You
suggested editing /etc/passwd but have as yet declined to give me any
more specific instructions, and I'm loath to just assume a simple
thing like changing the name consistently in the file and renaming
the directory will work without a hitch. My other speculations have
proven to have exceptions or other gotchas, as you keep pointing out,
so why should I actually risk reconfiguring my system without enough
knowledge? Aside from your one incomplete (as in, insufficiently
detailed) suggestion you have provided nothing to help my problem,
but you have spewed a great volume of unpleasantness I would have
much rather never heard. In fact, I get the feeling you just like a
good fight, and will try to maneuver people on mailing lists into
having to defend a bogus straw man position you attributed to them
just to amuse yourself. I can think of no other explanation for the
way this has gotten out of hand. One other poster quite helpfully
suggested I just move the project I'm debugging, or even a specific
executable to be debugged, out of the bothersome directory tree; an
excellent idea I wish I'd thought up myself. That poster is a paragon
of helpfulness. You are a paragon of condescending arrogance with no
apparent goal but to subtly reinforce your own belief in your own
intellectual superiority, at the expense of whatever newbie happens
to get in your crosshairs on any given week.

In fact, I think I am about to killfile you. Fire a parting shot if
you wish. I don't care.
Post by Robert Collins
5) You claim that a Long filename without a short file name will cause
all sorts of trouble, even though you have been provided with
documentation from Microsoft about a supported method for creating just
such a situation.
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2002-07/msg02247.html
And it will. The file won't be accessible to legacy applications for
one. And it will cause trouble for cygwin, as *you* pointed out.
There's obviously a very good reason why it's not the default
behavior of the filesystem and why it requires jumping through
registry hoops to do that -- because it occasionally is needed for
something but when messed with casually it screws things up, like
dynamite or highly toxic industrial chemicals.
Post by Robert Collins
You were provided with an external link to authoritative documentation
about the topic. No guessing was needed about whether SFN are *always*
created or not.
Before the link was provided, guessing was needed. I had no idea that
link even existed before you posted. What do you expect of me, that I
see the future, or read your mind? Or just that every single thing I
even speculate about I should research for years and get a Ph.D. in
the subject before opening my mouth. (That would, incidentally, cause
a catch-22 when it came time to write the Ph.D. thesis!) The former
is ludicrous because it's obviously beyond the capabilities of most,
if not all, human beings. The latter is ludicrous for essentially the
same reasons. Nobody has time to research every little thing that
pops into their head, or to make every posting they make to a mailing
list a scientific paper with everything properly cited and supported
by cited evidence, graphs, charts, and data points. Even if I had the
Clockstoppers watch and thus had the time I couldn't be arsed to do
so. Besides, my discourse would then make me seem to be Mr. Spock or
something, and I'd quickly know everything, and all conversation
would become boring, and then I'd have no more use for other human
beings, and before long I'd be depressed and lonely and probably kill
myself. :P

Your expectations of a mere user are ridiculous. A user posts saying
they have a problem, they want instructions, as detailed as possible,
on fixes and workarounds, not explanations of how stupid a newbie
they are and why, nor "tough shit, you didn't read the FAQ before you
installed cygwin and its FAQ like you should have", nor a vague "edit
the /etc/passwd file" that would have a genuine stupid newbie type
"nano /etc/passwd" at the bash prompt and then stare in puzzlement at
the screen wondering what to do next.
Post by Robert Collins
In the light of this, I assume that you have not attempted the archival
search for topic relating to home directories with spaces in them, which
was the first thing I suggested.
What? I don't remember seeing this suggestion. Besides, it's
ridiculous. I don't need to try it to guess that putting "home
directories with spaces in them" into the search engine will almost
certainly produce exactly one hit: your posting that I'm replying to
now. The odds that that exact phrase was used in the past must be
negligible. Searches merely for "home directories" or for "spaces"
will turn up who knows how many million irrelevant hits. I might as
well read the whole archive from beginning to end. Which, of course,
I refuse to do. It's a lot less work for all concerned if someone who
knows the
directory simply answer the question. Putting the fix in the FAQ
would be
even better. Given that Windows has a tendency to generate such
usernames and then Cygwin's insaller uses it by default without
warning you
first, lots of people are going to install Cygwin, read the FAQ, and
see that it
says this might cause a problem but not see what to do about it. I
recommend that the FAQ's section on this be expanded to explain how
to change this situation once it's already occurred. (If it hasn't
been already; the version I have might be older.)



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Robert McNulty Junior
2002-07-29 04:05:43 UTC
Permalink
Paul, as of Windows XP, the maximun load that is in a standard shell
in 101 chars. And, you can use spaces in the file name.
DOS is what you are thinking of.
Windows XP has no DOS. It's over since last year.
Upgrade to XP or 2000.



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Michael Hoffman
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
I don't care for your tone mister. Also, it's not *my* job to research
all of this stuff. It's my job to use this software and expect it to
work. If something needs to be done to the code to make it work for a
corner case that was not sufficiently allowed for before, then whoever
maintains the code should do it, and whatever research is needed to make
the right changes.
I find that volunteers are usually quite capable of determining what their
job is. If you don't like the way it works you can:

(a) Change it and submit a patch; or
(b) Pay someone to change it to meet your specifications. You could buy a
Red Hat support contract or there are several people on this list who do
Cygwin consulting for hire.

You get what you pay for.
I don't need to try it to guess that putting "home directories with
spaces in them" into the search engine will almost certainly produce
exactly one hit: your posting that I'm replying to now.
You know it's a pity that you didn't actually try that instead of
blindly speculating on what it would come up with. If you searched
google for

home directories with spaces in them cygwin

you would have found several hits. The third hit is the Cygwin FAQ which
tells you exactly what to do. Imagine that.

As a courtesy, I would appreciate it if any flames were redirected to
/dev/null. Thank you.
--
Michael Hoffman <***@mail.utexas.edu>
The University of Texas at Austin


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Max Bowsher
2002-07-29 23:10:34 UTC
Permalink
I'm entering this thread late, so I'm just going to respond to one standalone
It's my job to use this software and expect it to work.
STOP! Wrong. This is a volunteer effort for _free_. Remember that.
If something needs to be done to the code to make
it work for a corner case that was not sufficiently allowed for
before, then whoever maintains the code should do it, and whatever
research is needed to make the right changes.
Huh? Why? They should do work because you say so? What gives you the right to
demand that?
Killfiling me might be a good idea.
Unless you take a step back and think for a moment on how cooperative volunteer
projects work, this is a good idea for the whole list.
In fact, I think I am about to killfile you. Fire a parting shot if
you wish. I don't care.
Sure, why not killfile one of the core contributors to this project. Thats
_definitely_ the way to get help.
... a vague "edit
the /etc/passwd file" that would have a genuine stupid newbie type
"nano /etc/passwd" at the bash prompt and then stare in puzzlement at
the screen wondering what to do next.
Cygwin provides a Unixy environment within Windows. You are expected to find
your genreral Unixish knowledge elsewhere. The Cygwin list has enough traffic
just about Cygwin. Find some beginner reference to /etc/passwd or something.
Alternatively, learn by experimentation. After all, if Cygwin is so terrible to
you, you won't have lost much if you break something :-). And besides, if you
that worried, then take a copy before you edit.

Quite frankly, this thread has blown way out of control. You reacted badly to a
terse reply. If you lurk on this list for a while, you will see that the sheer
volume demands a certain economy of words from time to time.

Experiment, learn, and ask for help when you need it, and you will be welcome
here.
Expect to be talked through every step, and people will ignore you. Remember,
people reply because they want to. If you make it hard to help you, then poeple
won't.


Max.


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Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-30 02:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Hoffman
I find that volunteers are usually quite capable of determining what their
(a) Change it and submit a patch; or
(b) Pay someone to change it to meet your specifications. You could buy a
Red Hat support contract or there are several people on this list who do
Cygwin consulting for hire.
You get what you pay for.
That wasn't what I intended. My intended meaning was that if someone
is going to change the code it's up to them to find out what change
would work, not me, unless I'm the one changing it.

This whole discussion is getting ridiculously far from the original
issue and I suggest we drop it.
Post by Michael Hoffman
You know it's a pity that you didn't actually try that instead of
blindly speculating on what it would come up with. If you searched
google for
home directories with spaces in them cygwin
you would have found several hits. The third hit is the Cygwin FAQ which
tells you exactly what to do. Imagine that.
Wait a minute, we were talking about searching the mailing list
archives, not Google. Also, there are so many ways to phrase that
that a priori I'd have no reason to expect any one phrasing to work,
and I can't be bothered to try every permutation. Lastly, the Cygwin
FAQ I have locally mentions that this can be a problem but says
nothing about how to change it. If there's a more up to date version
that does, fine, but it's not my fault if I happen to have an older
copy and didn't run across any news of an update.



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Christopher Faylor
2002-07-30 03:48:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Michael Hoffman
You know it's a pity that you didn't actually try that instead of
blindly speculating on what it would come up with. If you searched
google for
home directories with spaces in them cygwin
you would have found several hits. The third hit is the Cygwin FAQ which
tells you exactly what to do. Imagine that.
Wait a minute, we were talking about searching the mailing list
archives, not Google. Also, there are so many ways to phrase that
that a priori I'd have no reason to expect any one phrasing to work,
and I can't be bothered to try every permutation.
Hmm. Given that there are thousands of people reading this mailing list
you could expect many replies. There is no way of knowing which of
them would be correct. Sounds like it is not worth your time to be
asking questions either.

Although, I suspect your real reason for not using Google is that you
can't argue with Google. Or maybe you find that you are winning all
of your arguments with Google and are looking for a challenge.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Lastly, the Cygwin FAQ I have locally mentions that this can be a
problem but says nothing about how to change it. If there's a more up
to date version that does, fine, but it's not my fault if I happen to
have an older copy and didn't run across any news of an update.
We don't send out notices every time the FAQ is updated. The reason we
include the URL for the FAQ in the bottom of this message and suggest,
in the mailing list welcome message, that you consult it before posting
is because it is guaranteed to be more up-to-date than something you
downloaded a while ago.

cgf

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Michael Hoffman
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Michael Hoffman
You get what you pay for.
That wasn't what I intended. My intended meaning was that if someone
is going to change the code it's up to them to find out what change
would work, not me, unless I'm the one changing it.
I don't think anyone is planning on changing this code in the immediate
future. Anyone can jump in and correct me if I'm wrong here.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
This whole discussion is getting ridiculously far from the original
issue and I suggest we drop it.
A sensible idea.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Michael Hoffman
You know it's a pity that you didn't actually try that instead of
blindly speculating on what it would come up with. If you searched
google for
home directories with spaces in them cygwin
you would have found several hits. The third hit is the Cygwin FAQ which
tells you exactly what to do. Imagine that.
Wait a minute, we were talking about searching the mailing list
archives, not Google. Also, there are so many ways to phrase that
that a priori I'd have no reason to expect any one phrasing to work,
and I can't be bothered to try every permutation.
Every permutation? Hello? It worked on the very first phrasing YOU
SUGGESTED. Google is a remarkable tool. The fact that you didn't try it at
all in your blind faith that it wouldn't work that shows me that you are
wasting everyone's time here.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Lastly, the Cygwin FAQ I have locally mentions that this can be a
problem but says nothing about how to change it. If there's a more up to
date version that does, fine, but it's not my fault if I happen to have
an older copy and didn't run across any news of an update.
No, it's not your fault. That particular section was added on 14 September
2000, almost two years ago, and I don't think you can be expected to
update your documentation that often. And please let's not hear the tired
story about how it doesn't tell you what to do. There are many books and
courses available on how to do things like edit /etc/profile and read
README files.

This will be my last post in this thread. Good luck to you and I sincerely
hope your problems get solved somehow.
--
Michael Hoffman <***@mail.utexas.edu>
The University of Texas at Austin


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Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-31 18:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Hoffman
Post by Paul Derbyshire
This whole discussion is getting ridiculously far from the original
issue and I suggest we drop it.
A sensible idea.
Then why didn't you?
Post by Michael Hoffman
Google is a remarkable tool. The fact that you didn't try it at
all in your blind faith that it wouldn't work that shows me that you are
wasting everyone's time here.
Actually, no, I didn't try it at all because I shouldn't have to. If
the question's Cygwin-related and the answer's not in the FAQ it
should be fine to ask on the list. If it's not fine to ask on the
list (but is Cygwin-related) it should be in the FAQ. I'm not going
to double the work load by searching in two places for things, and
I'm not going to encourage leaving things out of the FAQ by not
asking questions on the list that aren't in the FAQ.
Post by Michael Hoffman
No, it's not your fault. That particular section was added on 14 September
2000, almost two years ago, and I don't think you can be expected to
update your documentation that often.
I have a more recent version than that. It doesn't say anything about
how to fix the problem. It just says that it can be a problem. Which
it apparently isn't, except perhaps for gdb.
Post by Michael Hoffman
And please let's not hear the tired
story about how it doesn't tell you what to do. There are many books and
courses available on how to do things like edit /etc/profile and read
README files.
I question your motives. You seem to be withholding information from
me and you or someone else is leaving it out of the FAQ even, and
when the information is requested you suggest buying books and
signing up for courses. These all have in common that someone makes
money off them. I have no interest in supporting corporate greed,
however, and try to buy as little as possible. Don't bother
suggesting non-free references in the future -- it doesn't help me
and it does make me suspicious of your motives.

Any question that's Cygwin-related whose answer you're not willing to
give on this list ought to be answered in the FAQ. The FAQ should
point to general purpose Unix references for stuff that isn't Cygwin-
specific. Those references should be *free* -- both as in speech and
as in beer -- a URL to a searchable site, preferably. Lastly,
everyone here should be reasonably forgiving of general unix
questions here when there was no way for the asker to know the
question didn't touch on some peculiarity of special circumstance of
the Cygwin environment.



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Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-31 18:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Faylor
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Wait a minute, we were talking about searching the mailing list
archives, not Google. Also, there are so many ways to phrase that
that a priori I'd have no reason to expect any one phrasing to work,
and I can't be bothered to try every permutation.
Hmm. Given that there are thousands of people reading this mailing list
you could expect many replies. There is no way of knowing which of
them would be correct. Sounds like it is not worth your time to be
asking questions either.
The analogy doesn't hold. Generally the ignorant refrain from opening
their mouths and babbling, while the knowledgeable are all too happy
to help. A search engine isn't that smart; only its user can judge
relevance, but on a mailing list I'd hope responsers were generally
capable of judging relevance and deciding whether or not to reply on
that basis.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Although, I suspect your real reason for not using Google is that you
can't argue with Google. Or maybe you find that you are winning all
of your arguments with Google and are looking for a challenge.
I didn't come here to argue, I came here for expert help with a
problem. If I wanted an argument I'd post to alt.flame. If I wanted
to do everything myself I would research on Google instead of posting
to the list. But if everyone is supposed to do that what's the
purpose of this list?
Post by Christopher Faylor
We don't send out notices every time the FAQ is updated. The reason we
include the URL for the FAQ in the bottom of this message and suggest,
in the mailing list welcome message, that you consult it before posting
is because it is guaranteed to be more up-to-date than something you
downloaded a while ago.
I did consult the FAQ before posting. I looked for any reference to
"error 193" and found none. That, of course, being all I had to go on
at the time. Surely you're not suggesting that I consult the FAQ
before *every single posting*, even responses to a thread, and not
just before starting a new one? That would consume way too much time
for too little likely gain.


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Max Bowsher
2002-07-31 22:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
I didn't come here to argue, I came here for expert help with a
problem.
Unfortunately, your abrasive personality has denied you that.

Max.


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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-02 07:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
I didn't come here to argue, I came here for expert help with a
problem.
Unfortunately, your abrasive personality has denied you that.
*My* abrasive personality?

Anyway, since when was getting help contingent on winning a
popularity contest? That certainly wasn't mentioned in the FAQ or the
mailing list charter.

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Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-29 01:11:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Collins
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Robert Collins
I won't say what you don't want to hear. You might consider searching
the friendly archives, because they *tell* you what is worse - a home
dir with spaces or a home dir w/o spaces.
But once it's set, it's set.
Untrue. Edit /etc/passwd.
And do what, exactly? I imagine that doing the wrong thing in that
file will break a lot of stuff, and that simply turning a space into
an underscore in each place where the name occurs (and in the
directory name) will turn out not to be everything that needs doing.
Also, should this be done from a Windows app with all Cygwin stuff
shut down? (I have a programmer's editor that will leave the passwd
file with unix newlines.) What will happen to things like crontabs?
Do these need to be moved, and if so how?
Post by Robert Collins
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Obviously it should quote them only to other Cygwin linked programs.
Which it can identify by whether it launching something in the cygwin
tree or not.
Untrue. cygcheck, wish and other programs in the cygwin tree may be
native programs, and cygwin linked programs may reside outside the tree.
The vast majority of programs in the cygwin tree are, and the ones
that aren't probably form a finite number of exceptions that can be
explicitly handled as special cases. I don't imagine a lot of things
would need patching either. The compatibility layer could handle it.
For that matter, the compatibility layer could just check if the
target executable has cygwin.dll as a dependency. That should
identify them with perfect accuracy.
Post by Robert Collins
Imagine away... Cygwin's path includes the windows directory - and that
means many programs that won't unquote arguments.
It does? Why on earth...
Post by Robert Collins
<http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;[LN];Q210638>
Nobody would create a file with a long name and no short name. It
would break every app in existence just about, and probably the
filesystem itself.
Post by Robert Collins
I'm bowing out of this thread. You've shown yourself incapable of
discriminating between your imagination and reality.
No, I've shown myself incapable of knowing what I haven't read
anywhere and nobody's told me yet. I.e. incapable of reading minds.
If that's something you expect me to be able to do, your expectations
are faulty.
Post by Robert Collins
It makes it very hard to discuss the topic at hand.
I suppose it does, at that. You can't just mutter in my direction and
wait for me to read your mind -- instead you have to actually
articulate what you want me to know, and you have to give me all of
it, not just bits and pieces and expect me to pick the rest out of
your brain-waves on the aether. That must be an awful lot of work. I
guess it's difficult for telepaths like yourself to get used to
communicating with us esper-challenged. I sympathize. But I still
need the additional clarifications I asked for -- exact instructions
for modifying the directory name and the passwd file in tandem, and
anything else that needs dealing with, from crontabs to /etc/profile
to whatever. I don't want to have three changes in three places
suggested, make them, and then have things get worse because of the
four or five other changes nobody got it into their head to suggest
but thought I'd just *know* had to be made as well. Assume I don't
know anything but what you tell me and what's in the FAQ, and that I
remember the latter only hazily because it's a while since I read it.
Post by Robert Collins
* You should try Chris's list of tests.
I might, if I knew who Chris was and the URL for this list.
Post by Robert Collins
* You could ask the list (via the archives or direct) the simplest way
to get rid of the space in your cygwin home directory.
I think I did that, and yours was the first response that was even
halfway helpful -- the bit about modifying /etc/passwd at least adds
slightly to my knowledge of what to do, although that knowledge is
far from complete as yet.

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Christopher Faylor
2002-07-29 02:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Robert Collins
* You should try Chris's list of tests.
I might, if I knew who Chris was and the URL for this list.
Chris is me. I offered a couple of suggestions in this very thread at
19:38 EDT.

You can find the "URL" in the archives.

cgf

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Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-29 01:20:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randall R Schulz
Post by Paul Derbyshire
...
Now can anyone suggest a fix here? So far the only thing I've seen
explicitly suggested is to patch and recompile lots of stuff most of
whose internals I don't know the first thing about, and the vague
implication that I should blow the whole system away and reinstall it
after (finding out how and) changing my Windows username. I'd much
rather avoid either of those, especially as the latter will cause
data loss. Obviously the contents of the home directory could be
copied out but there's a ton of changes made to assorted other files,
such as /etc/profile, crontab entries, and so on. There's also the
sheer magnitude of the download.
Paul,
Is there are reason you don't just move your working directory (the one
with the sources and executables you're trying to debug) to a directory
whose fully-qualified name is devoid of spaces?
It really seems that you're making this a much bigger deal than it needs to be.
As in out of my home directory? I figured it was best to put my own
stuff under that directory, to keep it separate from parts of the
system and from configuration files. It would make things slightly
simpler in the case a reinstall is needed, for one thing -- copy the
home directory's contents out, reinstall, and copy them back, along
with just a few configuration files like /etc/profile and wherever
cron stores its state.

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Randall R Schulz
2002-07-29 01:43:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randall R Schulz
Post by Randall R Schulz
...
Now can anyone suggest a fix here?...
Paul,
Is there are reason you don't just move your working directory (the one
with the sources and executables you're trying to debug) to a directory
whose fully-qualified name is devoid of spaces?
It really seems that you're making this a much bigger deal than it
needs to be.
As in out of my home directory? I figured it was best to put my own
stuff under that directory, to keep it separate from parts of the
system and from configuration files. It would make things slightly
simpler in the case a reinstall is needed, for one thing -- copy the
home directory's contents out, reinstall, and copy them back, along
with just a few configuration files like /etc/profile and wherever
cron stores its state.
Paul,

Well, you don't have to put it in a system directory like /usr or /lib or
/var. How about creating /home/pd or some such?

Loosen up a little. It's a personal computer, after all. Make it do what
_you_ want!

Randall


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Randall R Schulz
2002-07-29 00:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
...
Now can anyone suggest a fix here? So far the only thing I've seen
explicitly suggested is to patch and recompile lots of stuff most of
whose internals I don't know the first thing about, and the vague
implication that I should blow the whole system away and reinstall it
after (finding out how and) changing my Windows username. I'd much
rather avoid either of those, especially as the latter will cause
data loss. Obviously the contents of the home directory could be
copied out but there's a ton of changes made to assorted other files,
such as /etc/profile, crontab entries, and so on. There's also the
sheer magnitude of the download.
Paul,

Is there are reason you don't just move your working directory (the one
with the sources and executables you're trying to debug) to a directory
whose fully-qualified name is devoid of spaces?

It really seems that you're making this a much bigger deal than it needs to be.

Randall Schulz
Mountain View, CA USA


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Gareth Pearce
2002-07-29 03:57:26 UTC
Permalink
You know, if it wasnt for the fact that people who could be reviewing my
nano package are having their time wasted so much trying to talk some sense
to this brick wall.
I would be finding this all rather amusing. (in a sad kind of way)

Gareth

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Nicholas Wourms
2002-07-29 12:36:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael A Chase
Post by Nicholas Wourms
As usual, you are quite right. I was just trying to teach the
hobbit
Post by Nicholas Wourms
how to fish without doing it for him. If he's reading this, I
suggest he seriously considier reading the FAQ completely before
asking YA question that is covered by it.
***First off, keep your replies on the list***
Post by Michael A Chase
From your somewhat clueless and longwinded responses, one is likely
to deduce that you haven't. Either that or your read the FAQ and
didn't understand it.
Post by Michael A Chase
* Nothing about gdb's behavior suggested to me that the directory
name was an issue. Therefore it would not occur to me to consider
that part of the FAQ relevant.
You really need to take a course in problem-solving. Finding out
what's causing the problem isn't always going to be black-and-white.
You must eliminate the usual suspects before you resort to assuming
the bug lies in the software. That means checking out the relevant
FAQ for the platform/software you are using and asking yourself "does
this condition exist?" I have neither the time nor the energy to
lecture you on the proper methods of problem solving, you'll have to
explore other channels to attain the proper skills.
Post by Michael A Chase
* I got to that part of the FAQ after the directory name had been
set
in stone, so to speak. Unless you know a way to change a user
name
painlessly without needing to reinstall a lot of stuff or lose
data, I'm stuck with it and need to know how to make it work.
This is called "research" in problem solving. You now have
ascertained where the problem lies, but your hasty conclusion that
the directory path is set in stone is foolish. You should have
searched the mailing list archives [which if you looked at the bottom
of the message, it tells you where they are assuming you are
subscribed to this list (hint: http://cygwin.com/lists.html] to see
how this problem was approached and solved in the past. I know the
answer is there as I had to do so myself. Even without the list, I
could deduce the following:

The name of my home directory directly coinsides with the logon name
I used the very first time I booted into windows. Therefore, what I
should do is click logout of windows and sign-in with no spaces in my
name. The rest I'll leave up to you...
Post by Michael A Chase
* File names with spaces aren't illegal on unix, AFAIK, so why
don't
Cygwin's components deal with it gracefully? More accurately, why
doesn't gdb? Because it hasn't troubled a lot of other tools,
notably gcc and make, which invoke all kinds of other programs
and
use all kinds of files from the directory and work fine, while
gdb
gums things up just invoking *one*.
*Sigh* I think you are missing the point, Cygwin is an emulation
layer, not a full-fledged operating system. However, patches are
gratefully accepted. So instead of waxing eloquent on this subject
anymore, might I suggest you look into the sources and figure out why
it is this way.

Cheers,
Nicholas

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Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-30 02:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael A Chase
From your somewhat clueless and longwinded responses, one is likely
to deduce that you haven't. Either that or your read the FAQ and
didn't understand it.
It sounds like you mean "you read the FAQ and didn't memorize it". In
that case, you're right. Is there something wrong with that?
Post by Michael A Chase
Post by Michael A Chase
* Nothing about gdb's behavior suggested to me that the directory
name was an issue. Therefore it would not occur to me to consider
that part of the FAQ relevant.
You really need to take a course in problem-solving. Finding out
what's causing the problem isn't always going to be black-and-white.
No, it's not. Sometimes you have insufficient information to diagnose
the problem and then you have to ask the experts. And hope the
experts aren't all condescending arrogant twits.
Post by Michael A Chase
You must eliminate the usual suspects before you resort to assuming
the bug lies in the software. That means checking out the relevant
FAQ for the platform/software you are using and asking yourself "does
this condition exist?"
Does which condition exist? Every time I have a problem you expect me
to open up the FAQ and read it cover to cover for every single
possibility? Sorry, no way. I might scan it for a relevant error
message or whatever and do mailing list archive searches for the
same. That's it.

In this case, I just got a cryptic "unable to spawn process, error
193" or such. This didn't prove to be a fruitful search, in the FAQ
(the copy I downloaded when I got cygwin, months ago) or elsewhere.

If you won't meet a user who has a problem halfway, and instead
expect the users to solve problems entirely by themselves, then why
are you participating in this mailing list responding to questions? I
question your motives.
Post by Michael A Chase
This is called "research" in problem solving. You now have
ascertained where the problem lies, but your hasty conclusion that
the directory path is set in stone is foolish. You should have
searched the mailing list archives [which if you looked at the bottom
of the message, it tells you where they are assuming you are
subscribed to this list (hint: http://cygwin.com/lists.html] to see
how this problem was approached and solved in the past.
[snip]
Post by Michael A Chase
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I don't see that URL in here.
Post by Michael A Chase
I know the answer is there as I had to do so myself.
Why would it occur to me to search the mailing lists a second time
for *the same problem*? I searched once for the error message. The
search was fruitless. Therefore I switched to plan B: ask the mailing
list and discuss the issue until someone tells me how to fix it.
Instead, it seems I'm expected (by you at least) to go back to square
1 and search the list archives a second time? It seems your idea of
the ideal helping a newbie session is:

Newbie gets error message.
Newbie searches mailing list archives. Solved or:
Newbie posts error message on list.
Helpful person posts a word and says "Search for it."
Newbie searches mailing list archvies. Solved or:
Newbie posts another error message, or that the search results
weren't specific enough.
Helpful person posts another word and says "Search for it."...

That would rapidly get tedious indeed. It's fortunate indeed that not
everyone here believes as you do about this.
Post by Michael A Chase
The name of my home directory directly coinsides with the logon name
I used the very first time I booted into windows. Therefore, what I
should do is click logout of windows and sign-in with no spaces in my
name. The rest I'll leave up to you...
You suggest changing my user name in *Windows* also? Wonderful. Have
you any idea how nontrivial that is? It also means my Windows home
directory in Documents and Settings has to be renamed. And then the
whole hard drive and registry have to be scanned and a search and
replace done, so as to fix things like mru lists and all kinds of
configuration files for all kinds of different software, from my
mailer and newsreader to my programmer's editor. It's probably easier
to live without gdb, or to not use my Cygwin home directory at all.
:P
Post by Michael A Chase
*Sigh* I think you are missing the point, Cygwin is an emulation
layer, not a full-fledged operating system.
Did I claim otherwise?


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Christopher Faylor
2002-07-30 04:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Nicholas Wourms
You really need to take a course in problem-solving. Finding out
what's causing the problem isn't always going to be black-and-white.
No, it's not. Sometimes you have insufficient information to diagnose
the problem and then you have to ask the experts. And hope the
experts aren't all condescending arrogant twits.
It's funny but I was going to say exactly the same thing about the
people asking questions of the experts. Guess I owe you a coke.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Nicholas Wourms
You must eliminate the usual suspects before you resort to assuming the
bug lies in the software. That means checking out the relevant FAQ for
the platform/software you are using and asking yourself "does this
condition exist?"
Does which condition exist? Every time I have a problem you expect me
to open up the FAQ and read it cover to cover for every single
possibility? Sorry, no way. I might scan it for a relevant error
message or whatever and do mailing list archive searches for the same.
That's it.
We're sorry! We're sorry, ok? Sob. Why oh why did anyone ever
suggest reading documentation? It's just wrong! Wrong!
Post by Paul Derbyshire
In this case, I just got a cryptic "unable to spawn process, error
193" or such. This didn't prove to be a fruitful search, in the FAQ
(the copy I downloaded when I got cygwin, months ago) or elsewhere.
Yep, that old from months ago copy of the FAQ. No reason to consult
anything but that and those dog-eared encyclopedias you got as a boy. I
think the answer to this one may lie in deepest Persia...
Post by Paul Derbyshire
If you won't meet a user who has a problem halfway, and instead expect
the users to solve problems entirely by themselves, then why are you
participating in this mailing list responding to questions? I question
your motives.
I think we all expect that we offer a suggestion and the user actually
tries it. In this case, the suggestion was made that the problem might
have something to do with directories with spaces in them. I'm now
on my third or fourth iteration of explaining that I don't think that
is what your problem is. You'll probably ignore this message too.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Nicholas Wourms
I know the answer is there as I had to do so myself.
Why would it occur to me to search the mailing lists a second time
for *the same problem*? I searched once for the error message. The
search was fruitless. Therefore I switched to plan B: ask the mailing
list and discuss the issue until someone tells me how to fix it.
Instead, it seems I'm expected (by you at least) to go back to square
1 and search the list archives a second time? It seems your idea of
Newbie gets error message.
Newbie posts error message on list.
I posted what the error message resolved to. Did you go the extra step
of trying to do a specific google search on ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT? Or
did you get sidetracked in your nonstop responses to people who suggested
the "directories with spaces" argument?

I'll answer for you. You chose the latter. You don't trust google but
you do trust any random person who responds on a mailing list. You
apparently trust them so blindly that you do not even do empirical
experiments to see if their assertions are correct even though providing
clear explanations about what you tried would actually be helpful to
the whole process.

Btw, here's a URL for you: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html . Should have
suggested this when you first posted. I suspect a cygcheck -r -s -v
would be useful in debugging your problem (see below).
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Helpful person posts a word and says "Search for it."
Now that you provided more details in another thread. I wonder if it is
possible that you're somehow not using the cygwin gcc compiler but are,
instead, using the djgpp compiler. If so, that could explain your
problem. I don't have a djgpp compiler to confirm but I suspect that
cygwin/windows gdb probably can't debug executables built with the djgpp
gcc, i.e., as far as gdb is concerned the EXE FORMAT is BAD and that's
considered an ERROR.

cgf
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Max Bowsher
2002-07-30 15:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
You suggest changing my user name in *Windows* also? Wonderful. Have
you any idea how nontrivial that is? It also means my Windows home
directory in Documents and Settings has to be renamed.
False
Post by Paul Derbyshire
And then the
whole hard drive and registry have to be scanned and a search and
replace done, so as to fix things like mru lists and all kinds of
configuration files for all kinds of different software, from my
mailer and newsreader to my programmer's editor.
False.

Max.


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Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-31 18:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
You suggest changing my user name in *Windows* also? Wonderful. Have
you any idea how nontrivial that is? It also means my Windows home
directory in Documents and Settings has to be renamed.
False
Don't contradict me publicly.
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
And then the
whole hard drive and registry have to be scanned and a search and
replace done, so as to fix things like mru lists and all kinds of
configuration files for all kinds of different software, from my
mailer and newsreader to my programmer's editor.
False.
What have you been smoking? When I set up my Windows username in the
first place all kinds of things had to be configured. If I changed it
or created a new one those things have to be updated. It's common
sense!

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Max Bowsher
2002-07-31 22:09:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
You suggest changing my user name in *Windows* also? Wonderful. Have
you any idea how nontrivial that is? It also means my Windows home
directory in Documents and Settings has to be renamed.
False
Don't contradict me publicly.
WHAT!?!?!?!?! (and yes, I'm bellowing on purpose). You say something I know to
be incorrect, but I'm not allowed to correct you? What should I do? Let
incorrect information rest in the archives uncorrected? Allow others not certain
on this point to get the wrong impression? You made a factual mistake, and I
corrected that fact. If you view that as a personal attack, then I am, quite
frankly, amazed..
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
And then the
whole hard drive and registry have to be scanned and a search and
replace done, so as to fix things like mru lists and all kinds of
configuration files for all kinds of different software, from my
mailer and newsreader to my programmer's editor.
False.
What have you been smoking? When I set up my Windows username in the
first place all kinds of things had to be configured. If I changed it
or created a new one those things have to be updated. It's common
sense!
Right. I've changed my Windows username - to one with a space in it, no less. I
will report on any problems I have.

Max.


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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-02 07:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Paul Derbyshire
You suggest changing my user name in *Windows* also? Wonderful. Have
you any idea how nontrivial that is? It also means my Windows home
directory in Documents and Settings has to be renamed.
False
Don't contradict me publicly.
WHAT!?!?!?!?! (and yes, I'm bellowing on purpose). You say something I know to
be incorrect, but I'm not allowed to correct you?
It's not incorrect. Unless you think it's coincidence that the
Documents and Settings subdirectory's name happens to be the same as
my username.

In any event, yes, you're not allowed to publicly contradict me. I've
had it up to here with condescending and hostile messages that make
me out to be some kind of an idiot or otherwise defame and ridicule
me. From now on I'm demanding a payment of $39.95 for the privilege
of dragging my name through the mud -- no more freebies! Payment to
be sent to ... nah, posting my address here would *not* be a good
idea. I'll get a P.O. box and post that address later. :P
Post by Max Bowsher
If you view that as a personal attack, then I am, quite frankly, amazed..
Given the context it is an attack.
Other newbies come on the list, ask questions, get answers that are
generally as helpful as possible. Not useless responses, or
condescending ones, or ones that flatly contradict.
I come on the list, do likewise, and receive a different treatment.

Of course any different behavior exhibited toward me I regard as
personal. Obviously it *is* personal if someone singles me out for
different treatment. I am simply asking that this stop. Act like I'm
someone else, with a different name, posting the odd question about
cron or gdb. Forget that I'm me, that person you feel the need to
treat more hostilely and rudely than you do others on the list with
questions. If you can't do that killfile me to save everyone the
headache.
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
What have you been smoking? When I set up my Windows username in the
first place all kinds of things had to be configured. If I changed it
or created a new one those things have to be updated. It's common
sense!
Right. I've changed my Windows username - to one with a space in it, no less. I
will report on any problems I have.
Problems or no problems I don't want to bother with the enormous
amount of sheer nitpicking work required to propagate the change
consistently to everywhere the old name appears, and the risk of
breaking something if I miss one obscure instance. Especially not to
satisfy the needs of one subsystem, when everything else on Windows
outside of Cygwin seems to find my existing user name just peachy.

I'm amazed at how ridiculous this whole thing is. Someone suggests
changing my Windows username, I give the above reason why I'm not
willing to do so (though not in exactly the same words), and all this
crap descends from it. Good grief -- is refusing a suggestion because
it's not in line with my needs such a big crime? What if someone has
a problem, you suggest reformatting their hard drive, and they object
because they'd lose data? I suppose you'd tell them to "back it up
stupid" as though it weren't obvious that for whatever reason,
probably lack of sufficient media (or money), they can't. And if they
told you they couldn't you'd flame them and say "if you don't have
the money you have no business using this excellent piece of free
software" as though this wasn't implying a whopping contradiction...

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Corinna Vinschen
2002-08-02 11:23:22 UTC
Permalink
[A lot of stuff]
What astonishes me is that you seem to be completely unable to consider
that it *could* be your own fault how an (otherwise unrelated) group
of people is responding...

*shrug*

Corinna
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Gareth Pearce
2002-08-02 12:21:48 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Corinna Vinschen" <corinna-***@cygwin.com>
To: <***@cygwin.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: Mysterious gdb behavior.
Post by Corinna Vinschen
[A lot of stuff]
What astonishes me is that you seem to be completely unable to consider
that it *could* be your own fault how an (otherwise unrelated) group
of people is responding...
What astonishes me is the amazing levels of hope that the members of this
list have shown in continuing to reply well after Paul had conclusively
displayed a distinct lack of ability to be helped. I could say many other
things here but I am too apathetic.

Gareth


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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-03 03:42:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gareth Pearce
Post by Corinna Vinschen
[A lot of stuff]
What astonishes me is that you seem to be completely unable to consider
that it *could* be your own fault how an (otherwise unrelated) group
of people is responding...
What astonishes me is the amazing levels of hope that the members of this
list have shown in continuing to reply well after Paul had conclusively
displayed a distinct lack of ability to be helped. I could say many other
things here but I am too apathetic.
No, I have a distinct lack of ability to be insulted and take it
lying down. If people would stop posting things that are insulting
and start posting "normally", there'd be no problem! Of course I
resist whatever is said in an insulting post. I am not going to
actually *believe* the insults, and since the insults are false
everything else must be treated as lacking in credibility. If you
want someone to listen to what you have to say the basic rule is to
say it in a way that they want to listen. Insults just make someone
close their ears. If I'm "resisting being helped" it's your own damn
fault for choosing to deliver your "help" in shabby and foul-smelling
packaging.

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Kim Scarborough
2002-08-02 15:27:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Corinna Vinschen
What astonishes me is that you seem to be completely unable to consider
that it *could* be your own fault how an (otherwise unrelated) group
of people is responding...
Funny you should mention that. Once this troll actually got my attention, I
thought to myself "this clown has *got* to have a history". Sure enough:

Paul Derbyshire FAQ (from 1996):

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=4vop05%24ru8%40bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca&o
e=UTF-8&output=gplain

Somebody complaining about him doing in alt.fan.kia-mennie what he's doing
here (from 1998):

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6915f8%24bkp%40saltmine.radix.net&oe=UTF-
8&output=gplain

A funny story about him (from 1996):

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=DMFL5q.17t%40cunews.carleton.ca&oe=UTF-8&
output=gplain

Here's his history of flames, attacks, and whines (1996-1998):

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&q=author:
ao950%40FreeNet.Carleton.CA

Here he is whining like a psycho about his college:

http://www.globalserve.net/~derbyshire/cli.html

You get the idea. Anyway, I promise I won't off-topic post (or feed the troll)
anymore, I just wanted people to know who they were dealing with. So many
people here have been strikingly polite to him, now you can see it's
pointless.

Oh yeah, and somebody created a newsgroup, alt.paul-derbyshire.fix-it-now,
which I think is pretty funny.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kim Scarborough http://www.unknown.nu/kim/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A library makes me sick."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now listening to: Coil - "Out in the Cold"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------




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Sylvain Petreolle
2002-08-02 16:34:01 UTC
Permalink
This is the moment to say : LOL :)) Great one :))

--- Kim Scarborough <***@jinx.unknown.nu> a écrit : > > What
astonishes me is that you seem to be completely unable to
Post by Robert Collins
consider
Post by Corinna Vinschen
that it *could* be your own fault how an (otherwise unrelated)
group
Post by Corinna Vinschen
of people is responding...
Funny you should mention that. Once this troll actually got my
attention, I
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=4vop05%24ru8%40bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca&o
Post by Robert Collins
e=UTF-8&output=gplain
Somebody complaining about him doing in alt.fan.kia-mennie what he's doing
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6915f8%24bkp%40saltmine.radix.net&oe=UTF-
Post by Robert Collins
8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=DMFL5q.17t%40cunews.carleton.ca&oe=UTF-8&
Post by Robert Collins
output=gplain
ao950%40FreeNet.Carleton.CA
http://www.globalserve.net/~derbyshire/cli.html
You get the idea. Anyway, I promise I won't off-topic post (or feed the troll)
anymore, I just wanted people to know who they were dealing with. So many
people here have been strikingly polite to him, now you can see it's
pointless.
Oh yeah, and somebody created a newsgroup,
alt.paul-derbyshire.fix-it-now,
which I think is pretty funny.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Robert Collins
Kim Scarborough
http://www.unknown.nu/kim/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Robert Collins
"A library makes me sick."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Robert Collins
Now listening to: Coil - "Out in the Cold"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Robert Collins
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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-03 03:42:13 UTC
Permalink
On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:27, Kim Scarborough wrote:

[Snip]
Post by Kim Scarborough
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=4vop05%24ru8%40bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca&o
e=UTF-8&output=gplain
That file is over six years old and it's a tissue of lies. In fact I
thought I'd had all copies of it erased as violating anti-defamation
laws. If you must know, I fell in with a bad crowd so to speak. They
wanted me to do things I found questionable and I refused; their
response was to launch a massive smear campaign. IT LASTED TWO YEARS,
before they eventually broke up or got sick of it. This can hardly be
considered something of my doing.

Also, I can see no purpose served by searching for this kind of
garbage and posting links save to inflame the mailing list. I'm
amazed that your posting, so obviously worthless and noncontributing
and off-topic, survived moderation. In fact I ask of the moderator,
on that basis, to purge it from the list archives and if he sees fit
ban this woman off the list. There can be no justification for her
behavior.

[snip further links]

These are all the results of the same smear campaign. Untrustworthy.

[snip calling me a psycho]

Accusations, unsupported my a qualified medical opinion, of having
mental illnesses that tend to endanger others and get one locked up
are a violation of anti-defamation laws. You retract that at once, or
I will pursue legal action.
Post by Kim Scarborough
You get the idea. Anyway, I promise I won't off-topic post anymore...
You certainly won't. You'll no longer be a subscriber by sunup if
there's any justice here.
Post by Kim Scarborough
I just wanted people to know who they were dealing with.
A flimsy excuse. How can pointing them to pages of lies and damned
lies that were spread about me possibly tell anyone anything truthful
about me? Your real intent is to defame me. No matter what your
intent, the posting is so far off charter it nearly came back from
the other side.
Post by Kim Scarborough
So many people here have been strikingly polite to him, now you can
see it's pointless.
Wrong. I'm polite to people who are polite to me. If someone is
impolite to me, however, I reserve the right to respond in kind. Now
shut up.

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Kim Scarborough
2002-08-03 13:46:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Accusations, unsupported my a qualified medical opinion, of having
mental illnesses that tend to endanger others and get one locked up
are a violation of anti-defamation laws. You retract that at once, or
I will pursue legal action.
Hey, look! Just like it said he would in FAQ answer 25.1! Boy, that FAQ
(once again, that URL is
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=4vop05%24ru8%40bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain>)
sure is accurate.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kim Scarborough http://www.unknown.nu/kim/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I was so naive as a kid, I used to sneak behind the barn and do nothing."
-Johnny Carson
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Robert Collins
2002-08-03 14:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kim Scarborough
Hey, look! Just like it said he would in FAQ answer 25.1! Boy, that FAQ
(once again, that URL is
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=4vop05%24ru8%40bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain>)
sure is accurate.
I'm sure that it's highly entertaining, like a scab that one cannot
resist picking to see if the wound is still painful. However, there are
over 150 messages with Paul's name in them in the last 2 weeks!

This is well and truely off topic. So, enough troll baiting and fire
feeding, lets kill this thread.

Follow-up to , what was it? Ah yes, alt.paul-debyshire.fix-it-now.

Rob
Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-06 05:17:05 UTC
Permalink
On 4 Aug 2002 at 0:35, Robert Collins wrote:

[Some invalid, insulting content snipped]
Post by Robert Collins
This is well and truely off topic.
Yes it is.

[More snipped]
Post by Robert Collins
Follow-up to , what was it? Ah yes, alt.paul-debyshire.fix-it-now.
NO, FOLLOW-UP TO /DEV/NULL !!! THAT NEWSGROUP SHOULD NO LONGER EXIST.


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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-06 05:17:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kim Scarborough
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Accusations, unsupported my a qualified medical opinion, of having
mental illnesses that tend to endanger others and get one locked up
are a violation of anti-defamation laws. You retract that at once, or
I will pursue legal action.
Hey, look! Just like it said he would in FAQ answer 25.1! Boy, that FAQ
(once again, that URL is
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=4vop05%24ru8%40bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain>)
sure is accurate.
Anyone can predict that when you libel someone they will threaten
legal action. Now please just take your hands off the keyboard, wait
until the moderator bans you from the list for posting something so
inflammatory and lacking in redeeming value, and then FOAD.

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Nicholas Wourms
2002-08-03 11:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Collins
Post by Corinna Vinschen
What astonishes me is that you seem to be completely unable to
consider
Post by Corinna Vinschen
that it *could* be your own fault how an (otherwise unrelated)
group
Post by Corinna Vinschen
of people is responding...
Funny you should mention that. Once this troll actually got my
attention, I
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=4vop05%24ru8%40bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca&o
Post by Robert Collins
e=UTF-8&output=gplain
Somebody complaining about him doing in alt.fan.kia-mennie what he's doing
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6915f8%24bkp%40saltmine.radix.net&oe=UTF-
Post by Robert Collins
8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=DMFL5q.17t%40cunews.carleton.ca&oe=UTF-8&
Post by Robert Collins
output=gplain
ao950%40FreeNet.Carleton.CA
http://www.globalserve.net/~derbyshire/cli.html
You get the idea. Anyway, I promise I won't off-topic post (or feed the troll)
anymore, I just wanted people to know who they were dealing with. So many
people here have been strikingly polite to him, now you can see it's
pointless.
Oh yeah, and somebody created a newsgroup,
alt.paul-derbyshire.fix-it-now,
which I think is pretty funny.
I'm still trying to catch up (100+ to go) :-). But *****LOL LOL LOL
LOL***** ROFLMAO!

Cheers,
Nicholas

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Robert Collins
2002-08-02 11:43:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Paul Derbyshire
You suggest changing my user name in *Windows* also? Wonderful. Have
you any idea how nontrivial that is? It also means my Windows home
directory in Documents and Settings has to be renamed.
False
Don't contradict me publicly.
WHAT!?!?!?!?! (and yes, I'm bellowing on purpose). You say something I know to
be incorrect, but I'm not allowed to correct you?
It's not incorrect. Unless you think it's coincidence that the
Documents and Settings subdirectory's name happens to be the same as
my username.
It is a coincidence.
Is it the default behaviour? Yes.
Is it the only behaviuor? No. There is a registry key that determines
where the profile directory is, and what it's called, and that key can
be changed at any point.

Rob
Max Bowsher
2002-08-02 16:37:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Paul Derbyshire
You suggest changing my user name in *Windows* also? Wonderful.
Have you any idea how nontrivial that is? It also means my
Windows home directory in Documents and Settings has to be
renamed.
False
Don't contradict me publicly.
WHAT!?!?!?!?! (and yes, I'm bellowing on purpose). You say something
I know to be incorrect, but I'm not allowed to correct you?
It's not incorrect. Unless you think it's coincidence that the
Documents and Settings subdirectory's name happens to be the same as
my username.
The names of these directories are mapped through the registry. They might as
well be random strings. Windows uses the username, if that directory does not
already exists, or adds suffixes if there is already a directory of that name.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
In any event, yes, you're not allowed to publicly contradict me.
Umm... free speech?
Post by Paul Derbyshire
I've
had it up to here with condescending and hostile messages that make
me out to be some kind of an idiot or otherwise defame and ridicule
me. From now on I'm demanding a payment of $39.95 for the privilege
of dragging my name through the mud -- no more freebies! Payment to
be sent to ... nah, posting my address here would *not* be a good
idea. I'll get a P.O. box and post that address later. :P
Post by Max Bowsher
If you view that as a personal attack, then I am, quite frankly, amazed..
Given the context it is an attack.
You state that Windows works in a particular way. I correct you, because it
doesn't work like you think. Sorry, I don't see where the problem is.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Other newbies come on the list, ask questions, get answers that are
generally as helpful as possible. Not useless responses, or
condescending ones, or ones that flatly contradict.
I come on the list, do likewise, and receive a different treatment.
Hmm, I wonder why? The _only_ difference between you and other listmembers that
is visible to the list is the content of your postings. I.e., it is what _you_
have said on the list that has caused this different treatment.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Of course any different behavior exhibited toward me I regard as
personal. Obviously it *is* personal if someone singles me out for
different treatment. I am simply asking that this stop. Act like I'm
someone else, with a different name, posting the odd question about
cron or gdb. Forget that I'm me, that person you feel the need to
treat more hostilely and rudely than you do others on the list with
questions. If you can't do that killfile me to save everyone the
headache.
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
What have you been smoking? When I set up my Windows username in the
first place all kinds of things had to be configured. If I changed
it or created a new one those things have to be updated. It's common
sense!
Right. I've changed my Windows username - to one with a space in it,
no less. I will report on any problems I have.
Problems or no problems I don't want to bother with the enormous
amount of sheer nitpicking work required to propagate the change
consistently to everywhere the old name appears, and the risk of
breaking something if I miss one obscure instance. Especially not to
satisfy the needs of one subsystem, when everything else on Windows
outside of Cygwin seems to find my existing user name just peachy.
I agree. Changing your Windows username is not the ideal solution to this
problem. However, I wish to establish the fact that the amount of sheer
nitpicking work that you refer to is zero. The only thing for me to be aware of
is that if I regenerate /etc/passwd with mkpasswd, it will use the wrong home
directory.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
I'm amazed at how ridiculous this whole thing is. Someone suggests
changing my Windows username, I give the above reason why I'm not
willing to do so (though not in exactly the same words), and all this
crap descends from it. Good grief -- is refusing a suggestion because
it's not in line with my needs such a big crime? What if someone has
a problem, you suggest reformatting their hard drive, and they object
because they'd lose data? I suppose you'd tell them to "back it up
stupid" as though it weren't obvious that for whatever reason,
probably lack of sufficient media (or money), they can't. And if they
told you they couldn't you'd flame them and say "if you don't have
the money you have no business using this excellent piece of free
software" as though this wasn't implying a whopping contradiction...
No one said that changing your Windows username was the only way round this. It
was merely raised as one possible option.

Max.


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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-03 03:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
In any event, yes, you're not allowed to publicly contradict me.
Umm... free speech?
Umm...anti-defamation laws? Trying to make someone you personally
dislike look like an idiot in a public setting by contradicting or
ridiculing them qualifies as defamation, by the way.
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Given the context it is an attack.
You state that Windows works in a particular way. I correct you, because it
doesn't work like you think. Sorry, I don't see where the problem is.
The problem is that you are trying to tar me some kind of idiot! I
will not stand for someone publicly painting me with that kind of
brush. I expect the same kind of responses other people get when they
come here posting with problems with gdb or whatever. Other people
aren't treated so rudely as I have been, and other people don't get
followups that attempt to make them look like idiots. Therefore I
shouldn't be treated that way. So stop doing it.
Post by Max Bowsher
Hmm, I wonder why? The _only_ difference between you and other listmembers that
is visible to the list is the content of your postings. I.e., it is what _you_
have said on the list that has caused this different treatment.
No, the difference is that someone has taken a personal dislike to
me, for whatever reason. The reason is irrelevant. My postings are
within the bounds of what's reasonable -- in particular they are
civil. Therefore, whatever subjective feelings you may have you are
expected to respond civilly and not in a way that seems designed to
cause trouble and to sully my name.
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Problems or no problems I don't want to bother with the enormous
amount of sheer nitpicking work required to propagate the change
consistently to everywhere the old name appears, and the risk of
breaking something if I miss one obscure instance. Especially not to
satisfy the needs of one subsystem, when everything else on Windows
outside of Cygwin seems to find my existing user name just peachy.
I agree. Changing your Windows username is not the ideal solution to this
problem.
Then why didn't you just say so, instead of appearing to disagree and
insulting my intelligence with every posting?
Post by Max Bowsher
However, I wish to establish the fact that the amount of sheer
nitpicking work that you refer to is zero.
Bull. If I change my username to Zaphod Beeblebrox, to make things
consistent I'd have to rename my home directories (Windows and cygwin
both) to Zaphod Beeblebrox. Then there's all the MRU lists that refer
to files in Paul Derbyshire directories. Then there's any
configuration file that refers to such a directory, and anything else
of that general sort... and of course /etc/passwd. And if I don't do
these things? Configuration files left referring to the old directory
will break things. MRU lists would break and I'd have to re-find a
bunch of documents to get them the way they should be again. If the
directories are not renamed, Windows will start up complaining that I
don't have a home directory, or some file or other can't be found, or
it will create a new one for me and then I have to move my files to
it, fix the MRU lists, or live with having two of the damn things...
If the Cygwin one is not renamed we're back to square one anyway.
The only way it could be done with zero hassles would be to do some
kind of global search and replace, but that's doomed to failure --
there's no way to global search and replace the file names in the
filesystem itself, the contents of text files and the contents of the
registry could be done but only separately, and it would break a
million things -- for example my mailer would start identifying me as
Zaphod Beeblebrox when its configuration file was included in the
search and replace. Plus any app that stores its configuration in
binary files not in the registry would be missed... You're talking
about a good half hour renaming things and a good week or three
ironing out the kinks whether an automated search and replace is done
or not.

Frankly, the lengths you'll go to to support an insulting claim about
me, e.g. that I'm wrong about something, are amazing. What motivates
your evident dedication to this self-appointed task? What did I ever
do to you?
Post by Max Bowsher
The only thing for me to be aware of is that if I regenerate
/etc/passwd with mkpasswd, it will use the wrong home directory.
Says he who just got through claiming there were no gotchas.
Post by Max Bowsher
No one said that changing your Windows username was the only way round this.
It was merely raised as one possible option.
But when I dismissed it as too much pain and hardship you lambasted
me.

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Max Bowsher
2002-08-03 10:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
In any event, yes, you're not allowed to publicly contradict me.
Umm... free speech?
Umm...anti-defamation laws? Trying to make someone you personally
dislike look like an idiot in a public setting by contradicting or
ridiculing them qualifies as defamation, by the way.
I simply stated that your assertion was false. At no point did I target you. My
aim was simply to prevent the other people from learning incorrect information.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Given the context it is an attack.
You state that Windows works in a particular way. I correct you, because it
doesn't work like you think. Sorry, I don't see where the problem is.
The problem is that you are trying to tar me some kind of idiot!
No. I'm not. As above.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Max Bowsher
Hmm, I wonder why? The _only_ difference between you and other listmembers that
is visible to the list is the content of your postings. I.e., it is what _you_
have said on the list that has caused this different treatment.
No, the difference is that someone has taken a personal dislike to
me, for whatever reason. The reason is irrelevant.
I just gave the only possible reason above!
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Problems or no problems I don't want to bother with the enormous
amount of sheer nitpicking work required to propagate the change
consistently to everywhere the old name appears, and the risk of
breaking something if I miss one obscure instance. Especially not to
satisfy the needs of one subsystem, when everything else on Windows
outside of Cygwin seems to find my existing user name just peachy.
I agree. Changing your Windows username is not the ideal solution to this
problem.
Then why didn't you just say so, instead of appearing to disagree and
insulting my intelligence with every posting?
I was not discussing changing windows usernames as applied to this situation. I
was simply arguing that, should you want to do it, it would be substantially
less difficult than you suggested. I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression
about this.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Max Bowsher
However, I wish to establish the fact that the amount of sheer
nitpicking work that you refer to is zero.
Bull. If I change my username to Zaphod Beeblebrox, to make things
consistent I'd have to rename my home directories (Windows and cygwin
both) to Zaphod Beeblebrox.
Cygwin, maybe. Windows, no. Windows intends for you to access stuff in your home
directory through things like My Documents. If you wish to poke around in
"C:\Documents and Settings", fine, but you would have to change the directory
name in your registry profile as well.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Then there's all the MRU lists that refer
to files in Paul Derbyshire directories.
Yes. You are not required or supposed to change Windows home dirs.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Then there's any
configuration file that refers to such a directory, and anything else
of that general sort... and of course /etc/passwd.
Indeed. The one and only place we told you to edit in the first place.

[snip speculation about dire consequences]
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Frankly, the lengths you'll go to to support an insulting claim about
me, e.g. that I'm wrong about something, are amazing. What motivates
your evident dedication to this self-appointed task? What did I ever
do to you?
- The lengths I needed to go to are, in fact, very short. Which was what I set
out to demonstrate.
- Motivation: I saw a misinformed person, and tried to help.
- Dedication: Not required. It was an easy task.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Max Bowsher
The only thing for me to be aware of is that if I regenerate
/etc/passwd with mkpasswd, it will use the wrong home directory.
Says he who just got through claiming there were no gotchas.
I claimed it was trivial. I still believe it is.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Max Bowsher
No one said that changing your Windows username was the only way round this.
It was merely raised as one possible option.
But when I dismissed it as too much pain and hardship you lambasted
me.
No. I attempted to correct some points on which you were misinformed. You took
this very badly, for some reason unknown to me.

Max.


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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-06 05:17:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max Bowsher
I simply stated that your assertion was false. At no point did I target you. My
aim was simply to prevent the other people from learning incorrect information.
Like hell it was. If that was your aim, it wasn't well served, since
the assertion *you* made was false. Besides, it's obvious from your
tone here that your intent is to smear me. Go find something more
constructive to do.
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
The problem is that you are trying to tar me some kind of idiot!
No. I'm not. As above.
Deny it all you want. Besides, regardless of what you are *trying* to
do, what the hell do you think it looks like???
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
No, the difference is that someone has taken a personal dislike to
me, for whatever reason. The reason is irrelevant.
I just gave the only possible reason above!
Which reason amounts to, I'm being treated differently because I'm an
idiot. Well, I refuse to accept that. I have strong defenses against
being tricked into negative self-beliefs. Messages that are
insulting, or make insulting insinuations, are not trusted and nor
are their authors for some time after. If only M$ mail clients were
that secure.

Take your insults and your toys and go back to your own back yard to
play.
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Then why didn't you just say so, instead of appearing to disagree and
insulting my intelligence with every posting?
I was not discussing changing windows usernames as applied to this situation. I
was simply arguing that, should you want to do it, it would be substantially
less difficult than you suggested. I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression
about this.
Substantially less difficult as in three hours of pain and nitpicking
followed by one week of catching more omitted changes, instead of
five hours and three weeks?
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Bull. If I change my username to Zaphod Beeblebrox, to make things
consistent I'd have to rename my home directories (Windows and cygwin
both) to Zaphod Beeblebrox.
Cygwin, maybe. Windows, no. Windows intends for you to access stuff in your home
directory through things like My Documents.
C:\Documents and Settings\<username>\My Documents, to be exact -- can
you imagine the chaos when the path to *that* changes?!
Post by Max Bowsher
Yes. You are not required or supposed to change Windows home dirs.
Nor, I'd expect, unix ones.
Post by Max Bowsher
Indeed. The one and only place we told you to edit in the first place.
Without deigning to tell me whether or not anything *else* needed
doing along with that. Besides the obvious.

[Various snippage]
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
But when I dismissed it as too much pain and hardship you lambasted
me.
No. I attempted to correct some points on which you were misinformed. You took
this very badly, for some reason unknown to me.
Umm, would you like being bluntly contradicted ina public forum? The
result is to appear foolish. Especially with what's going on
elsewhere in the thread especially with Greg and Kim that is the LAST
thing I want or need.

Especially under the circumstances, that is a lambasting. The implied
judgment is pretty clear and unwelcome. And undeserved.


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Ray Easton
2002-08-03 12:32:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
In any event, yes, you're not allowed to publicly contradict me.
Umm... free speech?
Umm...anti-defamation laws? Trying to make someone you personally
dislike look like an idiot in a public setting by contradicting or
ridiculing them qualifies as defamation, by the way.
Not if the someone *is* an idiot.

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Michael A Chase
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Easton
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
In any event, yes, you're not allowed to publicly contradict me.
Umm... free speech?
Umm...anti-defamation laws? Trying to make someone you personally
dislike look like an idiot in a public setting by contradicting or
ridiculing them qualifies as defamation, by the way.
Not if the someone *is* an idiot.
The truth is a valid defense in the US. I'm not sure if that applies in
Canada.
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Christopher Faylor
2002-08-06 01:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael A Chase
Post by Ray Easton
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Max Bowsher
Post by Paul Derbyshire
In any event, yes, you're not allowed to publicly contradict me.
Umm... free speech?
Umm...anti-defamation laws? Trying to make someone you personally
dislike look like an idiot in a public setting by contradicting or
ridiculing them qualifies as defamation, by the way.
Not if the someone *is* an idiot.
The truth is a valid defense in the US. I'm not sure if that applies in
Canada.
Can we please terminate this thread now?

cgf

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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-03 03:42:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Corinna Vinschen
[A lot of stuff]
What astonishes me is that you seem to be completely unable to consider
that it *could* be your own fault how an (otherwise unrelated) group
of people is responding...
Of course it's not my fault. I haven't done anything wrong. Asking
why gdb dies with error 193 isn't a crime in any of the law books I
am familiar with. And my postings have been, by and large, civil,
with uncivil ones only in response to extremely terrible and
unjustifiable ones attacking me. Face facts: the first uncivil
posting was posted by someone else. I don't know their motivation nor
do I care. I do wish they would not allow their personal feelings to
interfere with the smooth operation of the mailing list.

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Robert Collins
2002-08-03 07:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
It just gets worse doesn't it? The last time I made an ill-advised
manual registry tweak it took days to restore the system to a known
good state. I'm not risking that again. Anyway, It Should Not Be
Necessary to Fuck With The Registry To Make Cygwin Work As Designed.
Cygwin is not perfect. I see in another email that you have tested and
found that the directory name with a space in it is the issue.

You have now identified the exact situation that results in your error.

You have also recieved free advice on several methods that may alter
your situation to one that will work, it's up to you to choose the
method that you prefer.

This thread is now off-topic. A summary message from you on how you
correct it (once you choose a method) would be good for the list
archives.

Rob
Paul Derbyshire
2002-07-31 18:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Faylor
We're sorry! We're sorry, ok? Sob. Why oh why did anyone ever
suggest reading documentation? It's just wrong! Wrong!
Straw man? I'm not quite sure what fallacy this is, but it's some
sort of equivocation. I am not irritated at being asked to use the
documentation. I'm irritated that I'm apparently expected to read
*all* of it cover to cover and memorize it, and moreover to do so
before posting to the list, *each* post to the list, even replies.
That's too much to expect of anyone.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Post by Paul Derbyshire
In this case, I just got a cryptic "unable to spawn process, error
193" or such. This didn't prove to be a fruitful search, in the FAQ
(the copy I downloaded when I got cygwin, months ago) or elsewhere.
Yep, that old from months ago copy of the FAQ. No reason to consult
anything but that...
Indeed. If it's on topic but not fair game on the list it belongs in
the FAQ.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Post by Paul Derbyshire
If you won't meet a user who has a problem halfway, and instead expect
the users to solve problems entirely by themselves, then why are you
participating in this mailing list responding to questions? I question
your motives.
I think we all expect that we offer a suggestion and the user actually
tries it. In this case, the suggestion was made that the problem might
have something to do with directories with spaces in them.
So I should have tried something to do with directories with spaces
in them. But what, exactly?

This is what I mean. "How do I fix problem A?" "It's caused by
problem B." "How do I fix problem B? And you didn't actually answer
the original question which was HOW DO I FIX not WHAT CAUSES problem
A." -- unproductive iterations and a waste of bandwidth. Why not just
answer the explicit question someone asks? It would save a lot of
headaches all around, not to mention bandwidth.
Post by Christopher Faylor
I posted what the error message resolved to. Did you go the extra step
of trying to do a specific google search on ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT?
No, why the hell would I? It's obvious what it means: that the
Windows API thinks it was told to execute a file that isn't
executable, or is corrupt in some way. I imagine you'd get that if
you tried to execute a Word file with that API, for example. In any
case it says "something's wrong with the executable file", and in
this case, nothing's wrong with the executable file since it runs and
works perfectly at the command prompt. (This being my test case for
the gdb problem, not the original thing I wanted to debug.) So the
error is itself in error, and researching what it normally means
doesn't accomplish much.

Plus, the procedure is this: Check docs, FAQ, and maybe mailing list
archives for key phrases (such as "error 193"). If not found, give up
on reference material. Ask the mailing list and wait for an answer.
Problem is, instead of an answer it's suggested that I go right back
to square one, to the reference material...
Post by Christopher Faylor
Or did you get sidetracked in your nonstop responses to people who
suggested the "directories with spaces" argument?
Most of those people have kept posting things that require I respond
to defend myself. This is rather unfortunate as it wastes everyone's
time and clutters the list. I don't see, though, how that's relevant
here.
Post by Christopher Faylor
I'll answer for you. You chose the latter. You don't trust google but
you do trust any random person who responds on a mailing list.
No, I trust google in a limited way, and I expect that lists like
this will have experienced and helpful people who will be wise enough
not to respond if they don't know the answer and not to respond
uselessly. (Notice that I don't expect the list *not* to have people
that are *not* like that -- condescending sorts seem to be everywhere
on Usenet and mailing lists, and there'll obviously be people asking
questions as well as people answering them.) The "limited way" I
trust Google is that I trust it to find Web pages mentioning
keywords, and that's it. It can't be expected to do more. It doesn't
generally occur to me to spend half an hour trying random phrases in
Google on the off chance of a lucky strike when I can simply ask
someone instead -- people are far more reliable, in general, at
determining relevancy than search engine robots. Besides, if it's a
frequently asked question it belongs in the FAQ and if not it doesn't
fail to belong on the list (assuming all the while that it's on
topic).
Post by Christopher Faylor
You apparently trust them so blindly that you do not even do
empirical experiments to see if their assertions are correct even
though providing clear explanations about what you tried would
actually be helpful to the whole process.
Does someone with a diagnosis from a doctor second-guess the doctor?
Often. Do they put themselves through medical school for eight years
to come up with their own diagnosis? No, they ask for a second
opinion. Here I've asked for a diagnosis on a list full of doctors
and got two conflicting opinions. Now what do I do?

One thing I won't do is spend eight years in medical school just to
fix gdb.

I *do* have one bit of evidence favoring the directory names with
spaces side. I've gdb'd a bunch of things with cygwin, but all of it
has been in one of just two directories. One has no space anywhere in
the path and the other does. gdb failed for every executable in the
latter and worked for every executable in the former. If it's not the
space it's still almost gotta be something about the path, rather
than about the executables themselves.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Btw, here's a URL for you: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html . Should have
suggested this when you first posted. I suspect a cygcheck -r -s -v
would be useful in debugging your problem (see below).
Not knowing whether it was a cygwin-specific problem or not I was
leery of going to a bug submission page to report what might be a
general gdb problem. Plus, I suspected a misconfiguration of some
kind, or perhaps a Winblows hiccup that might go away with a reboot
or an update patch.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Now that you provided more details in another thread. I wonder if it is
possible that you're somehow not using the cygwin gcc compiler but are,
instead, using the djgpp compiler.
No, that's affected cron but not the command line. gcc at the command
line definitely uses cygwin's gcc. Indeed, gcc --version at the bash
prompt says 2.95.3-5 and gcc --version at a Winblows prompt says
3.04. (Hmm, seems djgpp has a more up to date port than cygwin
does...)
Post by Christopher Faylor
If so, that could explain your
problem. I don't have a djgpp compiler to confirm but I suspect that
cygwin/windows gdb probably can't debug executables built with the djgpp
gcc, i.e., as far as gdb is concerned the EXE FORMAT is BAD and that's
considered an ERROR.
Nice theory, but it just doesn't fit the facts.

Also, how long have you suspected it might be using the wrong gcc? It
seems in hindsight you've been hinting at that for ages. If you'd
just said it straight out the first time you thought it we could have
laid the theory to rest that much faster and saved both of us some
time, and the list some bandwidth.

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Christopher Faylor
2002-07-31 20:45:59 UTC
Permalink
Btw, here's a URL for you: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html . Should have
suggested this when you first posted. I suspect a cygcheck -r -s -v
would be useful in debugging your problem (see below).
Not knowing whether it was a cygwin-specific problem or not I was leery
of going to a bug submission page to report what might be a general gdb
problem. Plus, I suspected a misconfiguration of some kind, or perhaps
a Winblows hiccup that might go away with a reboot or an update patch.
So what is it then? Am I an expert whose advice you are soliciting or
someone to argue with and ignore when I offer suggestions? I said that
cygcheck output might be useful. You chose not to provide it. This
is a trend.
Now that you provided more details in another thread. I wonder if it
is possible that you're somehow not using the cygwin gcc compiler but
are, instead, using the djgpp compiler.
No, that's affected cron but not the command line. gcc at the command
line definitely uses cygwin's gcc. Indeed, gcc --version at the bash
prompt says 2.95.3-5 and gcc --version at a Winblows prompt says 3.04.
(Hmm, seems djgpp has a more up to date port than cygwin does...)
* * * *
If so, that could explain your problem. I don't have a djgpp compiler
to confirm but I suspect that cygwin/windows gdb probably can't debug
executables built with the djgpp gcc, i.e., as far as gdb is concerned
the EXE FORMAT is BAD and that's considered an ERROR.
Nice theory, but it just doesn't fit the facts.
I'm not convinced. I'll bet if you specifically rebuild the file in question
with cygwin gcc it will probably be debuggable.
Also, how long have you suspected it might be using the wrong gcc?
Now you're questioning my motives, huh?
It seems in hindsight you've been hinting at that for ages.
No, I've been "hinting" that you should try a couple of things with gdb.
You've never done them, AFAICT (how many times have I mentioned this
now?). Until this last message, I've never "hinted" that it had
anything to do with gcc.
If you'd just said it straight out the first time you thought it we
could have laid the theory to rest that much faster and saved both of
us some time, and the list some bandwidth.
Actually, I had this brainstorm after I saw your cron posting where you
(re)mentioned DJGPP. Once I thought of it, I did a google search,
confirmed that the Windows debug interface might not be able to debug 16
bit executables, and sent my message. I wasn't certain if what I
discovered in google even applied to DJGPP but I eventually talked to
the author of DJGPP and he agreed that it was unlikely that cygwin gdb
could handle DJGPP binaries.

However, that's it for me. I was actually trying to see if it was
possible to cut through the crap and debug your actual problem but it's
obvious that this is a losing proposition. I'm bowing out of this
discussion and actually don't plan on responding to future messages from
you in general.

I do wish you luck in tracking down your problem though.

cgf
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Samuel
2002-08-01 19:34:45 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Derbyshire" <***@globalserve.net>
To: <***@cygwin.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: Mysterious gdb behavior.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Most of those people have kept posting things that require I respond
to defend myself. This is rather unfortunate as it wastes everyone's
time and clutters the list. I don't see, though, how that's relevant
here.
I would like to suggest that people try to limit their responses to the
facts. There has been such an abundance of personal emotional comments made
form so many in so many directions that I think there is little chance of
very much occuring that is productive. There is a likely chance that the
comments will continue to become less productive.

I think the emotional commentary occuring in this group is more prevalent
than any other technical group I have seen. I think the moderator's
commentary about the innapropriateness of discussing the newsgroup was
marginally bizare.



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Michael A Chase
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Samuel
I think the emotional commentary occuring in this group is more prevalent
than any other technical group I have seen. I think the moderator's
commentary about the innapropriateness of discussing the newsgroup was
marginally bizare.
The newsgroup portal is operated by people entirely independent of the
Cygwin project or Redhat. If there are any problems with newsgroups they
need to be handled by them, not by anyone associated with Cygwin. That's
why discussions of newsgroup operation are inappropriate in the Cygwin mail
list.
--
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** I normally forward private questions to the appropriate mail list. **
Ask Smarter: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Give a hobbit a fish and he eats fish for a day.
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Samuel
2002-08-02 01:05:59 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael A Chase" <***@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Samuel" <***@socal.rr.com>; <***@cygwin.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:28 PM
Subject: Cygwin Newsgroups
Post by Michael A Chase
Post by Samuel
I think the emotional commentary occuring in this group is more prevalent
than any other technical group I have seen. I think the moderator's
commentary about the innapropriateness of discussing the newsgroup was
marginally bizare.
The newsgroup portal is operated by people entirely independent of the
Cygwin project or Redhat. If there are any problems with newsgroups they
need to be handled by them, not by anyone associated with Cygwin. That's
why discussions of newsgroup operation are inappropriate in the Cygwin mail
list.
You misunderstood. I did not intend to say anything disagreeing or agreeing
with what was said about the newsgroup. I was commenting on how it was said.
So it is not correct to change the subject to "Re: Cygwin Newsgroups".

I am sorry for having said anything specific. It is a general problem I am
commenting on.



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Michael Hoffman
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Samuel
I would like to suggest that people try to limit their responses to the
facts. There has been such an abundance of personal emotional comments made
form so many in so many directions that I think there is little chance of
very much occuring that is productive. There is a likely chance that the
comments will continue to become less productive.
Patches gratefully accepted.

(with apologies to Chris ;-])
--
Michael Hoffman <***@mail.utexas.edu>
The University of Texas at Austin


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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-02 07:34:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Samuel
I would like to suggest that people try to limit their responses to the
facts. There has been such an abundance of personal emotional comments made
form so many in so many directions that I think there is little chance of
very much occuring that is productive. There is a likely chance that the
comments will continue to become less productive.
I think the emotional commentary occuring in this group is more prevalent
than any other technical group I have seen. I think the moderator's
commentary about the innapropriateness of discussing the newsgroup was
marginally bizare.
I must say I wholeheartedly agree. This list is for productive Q&A
and announcements and stuff, i.e. information exchange, not flame
exchange. Anyone with a personal bone to pick with anyone else can do
it in private email since the listserv was so kind as to ensure we
were all subscribing from valid mail addresses.

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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-02 07:34:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Faylor
Not knowing whether it was a cygwin-specific problem or not I was leery
of going to a bug submission page to report what might be a general gdb
problem. Plus, I suspected a misconfiguration of some kind, or perhaps
a Winblows hiccup that might go away with a reboot or an update patch.
So what is it then? Am I an expert whose advice you are soliciting or
someone to argue with and ignore when I offer suggestions? I said that
cygcheck output might be useful. You chose not to provide it. This
is a trend.
What's cygcheck? I still haven't heard where to download it or how to
use it. I suppose it's a utility for diagnosing configuration
problems with cygwin? IIRC there's something like that for djgpp.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Nice theory, but it just doesn't fit the facts.
I'm not convinced. I'll bet if you specifically rebuild the file in question
with cygwin gcc it will probably be debuggable.
I doubt it will behave differently after being rebuilt with the
cygwin gcc compared to after merely being built for the first time
with the cygwin gcc.

I build the "hw" test by typing "gcc hw.c -o hw.exe -g -O2" at the
bash prompt. It's already been verified that "gcc" at the bash prompt
invokes the correct (Cygwin) gcc.

Also, the executables that debug fine were built the same way. They
weren't built before djgpp was installed (in fact djgpp was installed
before Cygwin was), nor before any configuration change involving
paths. I don't see any way a problem causing the wrong gcc to be used
could affect only some of the executables built with it.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Also, how long have you suspected it might be using the wrong gcc?
Now you're questioning my motives, huh?
Just wondering why you've spent the last several days beating around
the bush instead of getting to the point.
Post by Christopher Faylor
No, I've been "hinting" that you should try a couple of things with gdb.
You've never done them, AFAICT (how many times have I mentioned this
now?).
Try a couple of things like what? Don't hint, TELL ME! I can't read
your mind and a hint that might be meaningful to a unix expert will
not typically be recognized by the average newbie with a question.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Actually, I had this brainstorm after I saw your cron posting where you
(re)mentioned DJGPP. Once I thought of it, I did a google search,
confirmed that the Windows debug interface might not be able to debug 16
bit executables, and sent my message.
DJGPP makes 32 bit executables. I don't think anyone uses 16 bit
compilers anymore. (DJGPP executables may have a 16 bit stub on them -
- I'm not sure if that's true of recent versions but it's true of
v1.x, which is long since obsolete.)

However the Windows debug interface is another red herring. The same
error appears with gdb -nw hw as I reported before so anything
specific to the Windows interface isn't it.



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Samuel
2002-08-02 14:51:16 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Derbyshire" <***@globalserve.net>
To: <***@cygwin.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:34 AM
Subject: Re: Mysterious gdb behavior.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
What's cygcheck? I still haven't heard where to download it or how to
use it. I suppose it's a utility for diagnosing configuration
problems with cygwin? IIRC there's something like that for djgpp.
When someone gets this ridiculous I think the best thing to do is to ignore
them. I think it is unlikely there is anything productive that could be said
except perhaps that cygcheck is so easy to find that I wish the Microsoft
Office documentation was that easy.



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Christopher Faylor
2002-08-02 15:07:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Christopher Faylor
Not knowing whether it was a cygwin-specific problem or not I was leery
of going to a bug submission page to report what might be a general gdb
problem. Plus, I suspected a misconfiguration of some kind, or perhaps
a Winblows hiccup that might go away with a reboot or an update patch.
So what is it then? Am I an expert whose advice you are soliciting or
someone to argue with and ignore when I offer suggestions? I said that
cygcheck output might be useful. You chose not to provide it. This
is a trend.
What's cygcheck? I still haven't heard where to download it or how to
use it. I suppose it's a utility for diagnosing configuration
problems with cygwin? IIRC there's something like that for djgpp.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Nice theory, but it just doesn't fit the facts.
I'm not convinced. I'll bet if you specifically rebuild the file in question
with cygwin gcc it will probably be debuggable.
I doubt it will behave differently after being rebuilt with the
cygwin gcc compared to after merely being built for the first time
with the cygwin gcc.
I build the "hw" test by typing "gcc hw.c -o hw.exe -g -O2" at the
bash prompt. It's already been verified that "gcc" at the bash prompt
invokes the correct (Cygwin) gcc.
Also, the executables that debug fine were built the same way. They
weren't built before djgpp was installed (in fact djgpp was installed
before Cygwin was), nor before any configuration change involving
paths. I don't see any way a problem causing the wrong gcc to be used
could affect only some of the executables built with it.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Also, how long have you suspected it might be using the wrong gcc?
Now you're questioning my motives, huh?
Just wondering why you've spent the last several days beating around
the bush instead of getting to the point.
That's one.

cgf

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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-03 03:42:14 UTC
Permalink
On 2 Aug 2002 at 11:07, Christopher Faylor wrote:

[snip]
Post by Christopher Faylor
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Just wondering why you've spent the last several days beating around
the bush instead of getting to the point.
That's one.
What?

And please learn to trim quoted material. Sheesh.

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Kim Scarborough
2002-07-31 20:26:53 UTC
Permalink
Hey, guess what. You are a tard. Cygwin is for people who want to run a Unix
environment under Windows. It's not going to do any good for people who a)
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Post by Robert Collins
Untrue. Edit /etc/passwd.
And do what, exactly? I imagine that doing the wrong thing in that
file will break a lot of stuff, and that simply turning a space into
an underscore in each place where the name occurs (and in the
directory name) will turn out not to be everything that needs doing.
Also, should this be done from a Windows app with all Cygwin stuff
shut down? (I have a programmer's editor that will leave the passwd
file with unix newlines.) What will happen to things like crontabs?
Do these need to be moved, and if so how?
You suggest changing my user name in *Windows* also? Wonderful. Have
you any idea how nontrivial that is? It also means my Windows home
directory in Documents and Settings has to be renamed. And then the
whole hard drive and registry have to be scanned and a search and
replace done, so as to fix things like mru lists and all kinds of
configuration files for all kinds of different software, from my
mailer and newsreader to my programmer's editor. It's probably easier
to live without gdb, or to not use my Cygwin home directory at all.
But hey, not only don't you know anything, you're rude to everyone who does
know something! That'll compensate.

Okay, I'm done troll-feeding for today.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kim Scarborough http://www.unknown.nu/kim/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everything's entertainment in America eventually."
-Tracey Ullman
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now listening to: John Zorn - "Homecoming"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------




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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-02 07:34:52 UTC
Permalink
[Snip unproductive flame]

If I don't know something, you lambast me for asking? I suppose you'd
rather I were born knowing these things. Guess what: most of us mere
mortals aren't born knowing anything and *have* to ask. Is it such a
crime?


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Gary R. Van Sickle
2002-08-03 03:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kim Scarborough
Hey, guess what. You are a tard.
HEEEEEEEEEHehhehehehehee!!! Oh man, sometimes the old standbys can be just what
the doctor ordered!

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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-03 03:43:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary R. Van Sickle
Post by Kim Scarborough
Hey, guess what. You are a tard.
HEEEEEEEEEHehhehehehehee!!! Oh man, sometimes the old standbys can be just what
the doctor ordered!
Cut the off-topic drivel.

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Gary R. Van Sickle
2002-08-03 05:53:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary R. Van Sickle
Post by Gary R. Van Sickle
Post by Kim Scarborough
Hey, guess what. You are a tard.
HEEEEEEEEEHehhehehehehee!!! Oh man, sometimes the old standbys can
be just what
Post by Gary R. Van Sickle
the doctor ordered!
Cut the off-topic drivel.
Suck my off-topic dick.
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Brewer. Patriot.

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Randall R Schulz
2002-08-03 03:52:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary R. Van Sickle
Post by Gary R. Van Sickle
Post by Kim Scarborough
Hey, guess what. You are a tard.
HEEEEEEEEEHehhehehehehee!!! Oh man, sometimes the old standbys can be
just what
Post by Gary R. Van Sickle
the doctor ordered!
Cut the off-topic drivel.
"Not ... unless ... you ... think ... about ... the irony."
-- Homer Simpson


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Christopher Faylor
2002-08-03 04:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randall R Schulz
Post by Gary R. Van Sickle
Post by Gary R. Van Sickle
Post by Kim Scarborough
Hey, guess what. You are a tard.
HEEEEEEEEEHehhehehehehee!!! Oh man, sometimes the old standbys can be
just what
Post by Gary R. Van Sickle
the doctor ordered!
Cut the off-topic drivel.
"Not ... unless ... you ... think ... about ... the irony."
-- Homer Simpson
"In theory mailing lists work, Marge. In *theory*."

cgf

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Gary R. Van Sickle
2002-08-03 06:04:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Faylor
Post by Randall R Schulz
Post by Gary R. Van Sickle
Post by Gary R. Van Sickle
Post by Kim Scarborough
Hey, guess what. You are a tard.
HEEEEEEEEEHehhehehehehee!!! Oh man, sometimes the old standbys can be
just what
Post by Gary R. Van Sickle
the doctor ordered!
Cut the off-topic drivel.
"Not ... unless ... you ... think ... about ... the irony."
-- Homer Simpson
"In theory mailing lists work, Marge. In *theory*."
"Where's the 'Any' key? I see 'Catarl', 'PigUp', but there's no 'Any' key!?!?
Ah well, I'll just order a <TAB>."
-- Paul Derbyshire

Or was that Homer J.?

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Samuel
2002-07-30 05:44:15 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Derbyshire" <***@globalserve.net>
To: <***@cygwin.com>
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 6:23 PM
Subject: Mysterious gdb behavior.
Post by Paul Derbyshire
Error: Error creating process <image path>, (error 193)
Then you look at the documentation. There's no documentation of the
error codes.
Attached is a small Windows console program that will send to standard
output all Windows error messages associated with a Windows error code. It
can be used as-is by redirecting standard output to a file but the program
is intended to just be a sample. I am not sure what would be the most useful
way for CygWin users to use this. Obviously the best solution is for
FormatMessage, as used by this small sample, to be called for Windows error
codes (usually returned by Windows GetLastError function) so that the error
message can be provided with or instead of the error code. In other words,
if FormatMessage is called with 193 as error code, it will return "%1 is not
a valid Win32 application" where %1 will be the exe file.

Well I just executed a compiled version of the program and the output is not
perfect so perhaps this can only be used as a sample. The important thing is
that it shows how FormatMessage can be used.
Demmer, Thomas
2002-08-02 07:55:01 UTC
Permalink
I think you all need to chill out for a while.

Paul, what's wrong with just trying in a bash

$ type cygcheck
cygcheck is /usr/bin/cygcheck

$ cygcheck --help
Usage: cygcheck [OPTIONS] [program ...]
-c, --check-setup check packages installed via setup.exe
-s, --sysinfo system information (not with -k)
-v, --verbose verbose output (indented) (for -s or programs)
-r, --registry registry search (requires -s)
-k, --keycheck perform a keyboard check session (not with -s)
-h, --help give help about the info (not with -c)
-V, --version output version information and exit
You must at least give either -s or -k or a program name

And then try
$ cygcheck hw.exe
and figure if anything is wrong with the executable.

Also, what is fundamentally wrong with
$ cp hw.* /tmp
$ cd /tmp
$ gdb hw

?

You have, for whatever reason, the impresson that spaces in the path
are something that gdb cannot cope with. Fine, my first approach would
be to do the copy thing and cross-check. Maybe you did that, but as far
as I have read your mail, you gave no indication you really did.

Also, on getting a hint about cygcheck you mails would be much better
reacted on if you just
1) looked if it may be already installed
2) send the output to the list

instead of ranting around "what the fuck is cygcheck?"

Another interesting fact:
For the first time you gave the commandline how you built the executable.
I am not sure if gcc does not care about option order (it does for
libraries),
one thing *I* would
try is
gcc -g -o hw.exe hw.c

(Note different order and omission of optimizer).

I have no idea if this makes a difference, but it is worth a shot.


Just my $0.02

Ciao
Tom
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: Mysterious gdb behavior.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Not knowing whether it was a cygwin-specific problem or not I was leery
of going to a bug submission page to report what might be a general gdb
problem. Plus, I suspected a misconfiguration of some kind, or perhaps
a Winblows hiccup that might go away with a reboot or an update patch.
So what is it then? Am I an expert whose advice you are soliciting or
someone to argue with and ignore when I offer suggestions? I said that
cygcheck output might be useful. You chose not to provide it. This
is a trend.
What's cygcheck? I still haven't heard where to download it or how to
use it. I suppose it's a utility for diagnosing configuration
problems with cygwin? IIRC there's something like that for djgpp.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Nice theory, but it just doesn't fit the facts.
I'm not convinced. I'll bet if you specifically rebuild the file in
question
Post by Christopher Faylor
with cygwin gcc it will probably be debuggable.
I doubt it will behave differently after being rebuilt with the
cygwin gcc compared to after merely being built for the first time
with the cygwin gcc.
I build the "hw" test by typing "gcc hw.c -o hw.exe -g -O2" at the
bash prompt. It's already been verified that "gcc" at the bash prompt
invokes the correct (Cygwin) gcc.
Also, the executables that debug fine were built the same way. They
weren't built before djgpp was installed (in fact djgpp was installed
before Cygwin was), nor before any configuration change involving
paths. I don't see any way a problem causing the wrong gcc to be used
could affect only some of the executables built with it.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Also, how long have you suspected it might be using the wrong gcc?
Now you're questioning my motives, huh?
Just wondering why you've spent the last several days beating around
the bush instead of getting to the point.
Post by Christopher Faylor
No, I've been "hinting" that you should try a couple of things with gdb.
You've never done them, AFAICT (how many times have I mentioned this
now?).
Try a couple of things like what? Don't hint, TELL ME! I can't read
your mind and a hint that might be meaningful to a unix expert will
not typically be recognized by the average newbie with a question.
Post by Christopher Faylor
Actually, I had this brainstorm after I saw your cron posting where you
(re)mentioned DJGPP. Once I thought of it, I did a google search,
confirmed that the Windows debug interface might not be able to debug 16
bit executables, and sent my message.
DJGPP makes 32 bit executables. I don't think anyone uses 16 bit
compilers anymore. (DJGPP executables may have a 16 bit stub on them -
- I'm not sure if that's true of recent versions but it's true of
v1.x, which is long since obsolete.)
However the Windows debug interface is another red herring. The same
error appears with gdb -nw hw as I reported before so anything
specific to the Windows interface isn't it.
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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-03 03:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Demmer, Thomas
I think you all need to chill out for a while.
Yes, they do.
Post by Demmer, Thomas
Paul, what's wrong with just trying in a bash
$ type cygcheck
cygcheck is /usr/bin/cygcheck
That it would never occur to me to do so without first finding and
downloading cygcheck? I was waiting for someone to give a URL.
Post by Demmer, Thomas
Also, what is fundamentally wrong with
$ cp hw.* /tmp
$ cd /tmp
$ gdb hw
Someone suggested something of the sort, and I tried it and posted
the results. I don't recall seeing it suggested prior to tonight's
batch of mail.
Post by Demmer, Thomas
Also, on getting a hint about cygcheck you mails would be much better
reacted on if you just
1) looked if it may be already installed
I don't recall installing it. If it came packaged with something else
I might already have it. Of course, it would have been helpful if
someone gave a download link.

I can check to see if it got onto my system piggybacked on another
module with "which cygcheck" I suppose...hmm, apparently I have a
/usr/bin/cygcheck, I guess it did. Still why would it occur to me
that it might already be installed? It's obviously not a stock unix
command like ls or grep...
Post by Demmer, Thomas
2) send the output to the list
instead of ranting around "what the fuck is cygcheck?"
Being told to use something I'm not even sure I have and definitely
don't know where to get tends to provoke that kind of reaction. Of
course, the question will be phrased more politely if it's not the
umpteenth time.

And before anyone suggests that I should know everything that's
installed on my system, I don't have the time or the inclination to
read a listing of /bin and /usr/bin before making each posting. I'd
be surprised if anybody does...
As for finding what isn't installed, if it's in a cygwin package
gimme the package name so I don't waste hours downloading everything
with setup until the binary shows up; and if it's obtained separately
gimme a URL, or at least tell me about an ftp searcher that actually
is marginally useful.
Post by Demmer, Thomas
For the first time you gave the commandline how you built the executable.
I am not sure if gcc does not care about option order (it does for
libraries),
one thing *I* would
try is
gcc -g -o hw.exe hw.c
(Note different order and omission of optimizer).
Funky. I've never seen anyone use a commandline like this for gcc.
I've been building things with gcc foo.c -o foo.exe -lbar -lbaz -g -
O2 and gcc -c foo.c -g -O2 and such for years without any problem.
The only case where order matters is that object files should appear
before object files they depend upon, unless you're building a
library, and libraries should appear before libraries they depend
upon.

Also, gcc's debugging information is better if the optimizer is *on*,
which is
different from many C compilers' behavior. I assume you did not know
this. Of course the quality of debugging information doesn't affect
the ability to even run the blamed thing in the debugger...



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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-03 04:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Collins
Post by Paul Derbyshire
It's not incorrect. Unless you think it's coincidence that the
Documents and Settings subdirectory's name happens to be the same as
my username.
It is a coincidence.
Bull.
Post by Robert Collins
Is it the default behaviour? Yes.
Ergo, it's not a coincidence.
Post by Robert Collins
Is it the only behaviuor? No. There is a registry key that determines
where the profile directory is, and what it's called, and that key can
be changed at any point.
It just gets worse doesn't it? The last time I made an ill-advised
manual registry tweak it took days to restore the system to a known
good state. I'm not risking that again. Anyway, It Should Not Be
Necessary to Fuck With The Registry To Make Cygwin Work As Designed.


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Paul Derbyshire
2002-08-03 04:01:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Samuel
Post by Paul Derbyshire
What's cygcheck? I still haven't heard where to download it or how to
use it. I suppose it's a utility for diagnosing configuration
problems with cygwin? IIRC there's something like that for djgpp.
When someone gets this ridiculous I think the best thing to do is to ignore
them. I think it is unlikely there is anything productive that could be said
except perhaps that cygcheck is so easy to find that I wish the Microsoft
Office documentation was that easy.
What's ridiculous? Nobody's deigned to tell me what it is, or where
to find it.
I can't read minds. I'm not about to go searching for it either. I've
never seen
an FTP search engine I found to be very useful. And I assume we're
talking about a binary file here, so web search engines like Google
won't have indexed it.

Why can't people who mention something simply also provide a link? It

saves a lot of duplication of work.


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